- t 1880-S V7 PL62 1st T in STATES.jpg (184.99 KiB) Viewed 753 times
- u 1880-S V7 PL62 R in AMERICA.jpg (140.54 KiB) Viewed 753 times
- v 1880-S V7 PL62 left star.jpg (202.88 KiB) Viewed 753 times
Doubled reverse left star- notch in the die?
- w MM slightly high tilted left 1880-S V7 PL62.jpg (173.2 KiB) Viewed 753 times
Above Guide lines for my coin slightly high tilted left
- x MM lines ARS_1880_S_VAMX_8.jpg (105.42 KiB) Viewed 753 times
Above Guide lines for picture from current VAM-7 page that is a VAM-7A Centered tilted left
These two die pairs and VAM-36 have been the subject of confusion for years.
The fourth edition of the ‘VAM Book’ lists the reverse of VAM-7 as: “Reverse C3d Normal die with IV S mint mark tilted left and partially filled.”
The LVA Revision Letter on the VAM-7 & -7A pages implies he’s not comfortable with the 7A being a later die state of the 7 reverse. The non-match is also emphatically noted on the 7 page in Comment 2 and the mm pictures above show the difference in appearance and location.
From the letter:
“80 S PCGS 209317—VAM 7 revised, added 7A. Obv of VAM 7 with strongly dbld date listed & pictured in VAM book. Took better photo of dbld date. Rev with IV S m/m partially filled lower loop & tilted left of VAM book description plus added dblg in both loops in 2010 VAM Supplement.
Your MS 67 coin, nice condition, is EDS with unusual hardly any die polishing lines in devices, but very fine ones in field. This coin has short vertical die gouge in left space below bow knot that shows in VAM book photo. So is same as initial listing of VAM 7 rev die.
But VAM 7 has later added revision in 2012 VAM Supplement that adds acid treatment on left wreath leaves since some are weak on this coin.” Unusual case of obv & rev dies striking coins and rev die later has left wreath leaves strengthened with acid treatment!”
From the above, Brent’s MS 67 coin appears to be the VAM-7 which made Leroy suspect that the acid treated reverse was a different die than that coin so the acid treated one became the 7A. Unfortunately, he still called the 7A reverse a C3d and the description only says: “Acid treated leaves to strengthen over polished areas in left wreath opposite ON, U & NI.”
Comment 3 from the page: “The current 1880-S VAM 7 listing matches the old 1880-S VAM 36 description in the Van Allen - Mallis book, but there are examples that have this obverse paired with the 'old' 1880-S VAM 7 mintmark as plated in the book.” The VAM-36 (which is on the 1880-S page under “List of Past Assignments but does not have a description) is in the fourth edition of the ‘VAM Book’ as: “Reverse C3o – IV S mint mark repunched with the original showing as a curved line at top and left inside of loop, a curved line in middle of lower loop, and a short vertical line to middle right of upper serif.” This is more the description of the VAM-7A but doesn’t list tilted left or the acid treatment so it might be the earlier die state.
My question is how do we improve the description to include the correct aspects of the MM?
@messydesk help please.
I looked at other descriptions of VAMs on the 1880-S page to see what might work better.
Comment 2 from the 7 page states “This reverse shared with 1880-S VAM-7, 1880-S VAM-59 and 1880-S VAM-61 *BUT NOT with the 1880-S VAM-7A” (VAM-59 is now in the ‘Dubious Listings” section) so I looked at VAM-61 which has the S/S VAM-7 picture and a better description: “Reverse C3d – (Medium) IV S mint mark re-punched and tilted left with partially filled in lower loop. Curved line in middle of lower loop and at top of upper loop.”
Confusing is another C3d, VAM-114 “Reverse C3d - III S tilted left.
Die marker - Diagonal scratch at left bottom inside of S mint mark lower loop. Heavy engraved bar on lower leaf end above N in ONE because of weak over polished leaf top.” (No pictures on page and the VAM Book has the III S only on the 1878 & 1879 reverses.)
Using the above descriptions and the S picture from the 62PL I suggest the following description for VAM-7: Reverse C3d – (Medium) IV S mint mark re-punched, slightly high, tilted left with partially filled in lower loop. Curved line in middle of lower loop and at top and bottom inside of upper loop. Early die stages may also have a curved line above the upper loop to serif, a diagonal line at bottom of upper loop to serif and spikes on right of lower loop. Engraved leaves above ON.
VAM-7A could be described as: Reverse C3o – (Medium) IV S mint mark repunched with the original showing as a curved line at top and bottom inside of upper loop, two curved lines in middle of lower loop, heavy buildup at left of both loops and a short diagonal line at bottom of upper loop to serif. Acid treated leaves to strengthen over polished areas in left wreath opposite ON, U & NI. (VAM-36, now in the past assignments list, has a C3o reverse “IV S mint mark repunched” so the 7A could assume this.)
Page problems:
“Additional Photos” are of a VAM-7A reverse and should be moved to the VAM-7A page.
“Mint mark of VAM-7?” (ARS1880s VAMX5.jpg) is identical to the VAM-7A MM on its page.
The other reverse pictures are from the same sequence thus most likely the same coin as the MM picture and do not correspond to the points on my PL62. The obverse pictures can remain as they are just a later die state of the VAM-7 obverse.
@fogie your letter from Leroy was the reason for the 2021 page revision, and
@WRPacific as you also have edited the page before could you please review and help make the following changes?
Suggested changes:
1880-S VAM-7 page:
a) Comment 1 Add “1880-S VAM-7A” since the obverse is the same per Leroy’s letter.
b) Comment 4 Remove “(see last picture below)” as that picture is on the VAM-7A page.
c) Update the reverse description to that given above if we have agreement.
In “Additional Photos”:
The obverse pictures are from the III2 4, just a later die state, and should stay.
d) At “Two scratches in front of eye” remove “? Might be PMD.” as the lines are on my coin also.
However, the reverse of VAM-7 and VAM-7A are different so:
e) the picture of “Mint mark of VAM-7?” ARS1880s VAMx5.jpg is of the VAM-7A as shown by the MMs in the above post. This should be moved to the VAM-7A page. Since the file name indicates the pictures that follow it are in the same sequence and my coin does not have these features move the following to the VAM-7A page also:
ARS1880s VAMx6.jpg (“E”)
ARS1880s VAMx7.jpg (“O”)
ARS1880s VAMx8.jpg (Wreath Bow)
ARS1880s VAMx9.jpg (Tail Feathers)
f) Add the following to from my early die state coin (I can supply different picture sizes if needed)
Full date and the 1, 8, 8and 0
g) Add reverse pictures of the wreath bow, wing gap, engraved leaves over ON and the R from AMERICA
h) On the VAM-7A page change the description to the one above if we have agreement
i) if possible link this post on the two pages.
thanks for the help
