1881 O Rim cuds?? What is this

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demetri
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1881 O Rim cuds?? What is this

Post by demetri » Fri Jul 15, 2022 8:53 pm

Hello,

I have a question about cuds. I picked up a nice 1881 O and have been trying to attribute it. Im stuck at 50A or 33B but as a 33B there are no die cracks and missing the eye die marker ( but does have others ie bump neck, M on rev) so I am not so sure. While looking I saw the comment on 50A "Most Examples Have Minor Rim Cuds on Obverse, VAM-33B has Cuds above L in Pluribus" so I have a question about cuds.

Are these rim cuds??? exactly what are they? They almost go completely around the rim. Can anyone tell me what it is LOL
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RogerRock
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Re: 1881 O Rim cuds?? What is this

Post by RogerRock » Fri Jul 15, 2022 10:07 pm

The term "rim cud" is a bit of a misnomer that has been used for so long that it kinda stuck. A true cud is a rim to rim die break with uplifted fields that extend past the denticles into the field. A "rim cud" refers to rim die breaks. Many rim breaks are produced as a consequence of collar clashes. One needs to be careful in assessment of rim breaks because rim bumps/damage pushes up metal that can mimic rim breaks to novices. A corresponding depression in the reeded edge is present where damage is the culprit.

Rim die breaks represent die chips missing from the rim of the die.
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demetri
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Re: 1881 O Rim cuds?? What is this

Post by demetri » Fri Jul 15, 2022 10:51 pm

Wow thanks for that info. No wonder Im having a problem. Ive seen those rim to rim blobs so those are cuds, So this is either a rim break or a rim bump/. So If I understand right, I should see damage or evidence along the reeded edge if it is a rim break.

collar clashes can cause a rim break so what causes a rim bump then? This bump is 3/4 around this coin.

RogerB
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Re: 1881 O Rim cuds?? What is this

Post by RogerB » Fri Jul 15, 2022 11:18 pm

RogerRock wrote:
Fri Jul 15, 2022 10:07 pm
The term "rim cud" is a bit of a misnomer that has been used for so long that it kinda stuck. A true cud is a rim to rim die break with uplifted fields that extend past the denticles into the field. A "rim cud" refers to rim die breaks. Many rim breaks are produced as a consequence of collar clashes. One needs to be careful in assessment of rim breaks because rim bumps/damage pushes up metal that can mimic rim breaks to novices. A corresponding depression in the reeded edge is present where damage is the culprit.

Rim die breaks represent die chips missing from the rim of the die.
With changes to Morgan/Peace variety management, is it a good time to formally correct this type of inaccurate description? Attribution terminology should be as descriptive and accurate as possible - which means discarding well-worn, but faulty language.

fogie
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Re: 1881 O Rim cuds?? What is this

Post by fogie » Fri Jul 15, 2022 11:21 pm

I have a couple if real cuds here - they are of the 1 cent variety as they are the most common (and I could find them quickly). VERY few Morgans show cuds this well and they cost a LOT when you find one. The more minor a cud - the less money! I would not call what you have pictured cuds.
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demetri
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Re: 1881 O Rim cuds?? What is this

Post by demetri » Fri Jul 15, 2022 11:27 pm

Yeah well I certainly need help lol Im sorry Im still kind of new to vams (but learning fast) and would love to get the terminology right the first time so feel free to correct me. Vam world is a godsend, but sometimes too much info can be bad too. Im going to have to send this coin to vampicker bec Im lost and stuck somewhere between vams on this one, and the "pushed up metal" only seems to be along the top edge as the reeds look normal to me. I did see similar edging metal on the extra high resolution images for the 1881 O but there was no notation as to what they are, I thought they were cuds silly me.
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demetri
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Re: 1881 O Rim cuds?? What is this

Post by demetri » Fri Jul 15, 2022 11:28 pm

fogie wrote:
Fri Jul 15, 2022 11:21 pm
I have a couple if real cuds here - they are of the 1 cent variety as they are the most common (and I could find them quickly). VERY few Morgans show cuds this well and they cost a LOT when you find one. The more minor a cud - the less money! I would not call what you have pictured cuds.cud#1-001.jpgcud#1-002.jpg
Yes I see now, so what the heck is this pushed up metal?

RogerRock
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Re: 1881 O Rim cuds?? What is this

Post by RogerRock » Fri Jul 15, 2022 11:56 pm

No -rim bumps are post mint damage where the reeded edge is dented and pushes metal into the rim. Your coin appears to show genuine rim die breaks without dented reeded edge.

Rim bumps are caused by dropped coins or other post mint damage.

The raised metal on your coin's rim is not a bump - instead it is a raised rim break.Please understand that die chips on the die show up as elevated metal (on the coin) from coin metal filling that void.
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demetri
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Re: 1881 O Rim cuds?? What is this

Post by demetri » Sat Jul 16, 2022 1:17 am

Duh right bump, I was thinking bump as in raised up, but not a bump as in dropping the coin, landing on edge to bump it up. I get it. Im going to study up more on cracks. There are sooooo many kinds of errors, searched error website but its huge. Al least I know where to start, sort of. Thanks for the knowledge, the community makes it all possible.

demetri
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Re: 1881 O Rim cuds?? What is this

Post by demetri » Sat Jul 16, 2022 1:25 am

So the die is chipped all way around the coin, Im guessing from clashing and all of the coins from same die after this one have the same error then?? How common is a raised rim break. Im asking because Im trying to find the vam, on this 1881 O and the listing has high resolution images for the 33B that show same raised rim breaks. Is it rare enough to be a "marker"?
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RogerRock
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Re: 1881 O Rim cuds?? What is this

Post by RogerRock » Sat Jul 16, 2022 1:35 am

Rim die breaks are rather scarce and they are collectible in my opinion. They can also make excellent die markers used to identify a certain variety and/or die stage. Check out the clashed collar with long rim die break on 1922 D Reverse VAM 16 B .
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demetri
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Re: 1881 O Rim cuds?? What is this

Post by demetri » Sat Jul 16, 2022 1:59 am

RogerRock wrote:
Sat Jul 16, 2022 1:35 am
Rim die breaks are rather scarce and they are collectible in my opinion. They can also make excellent die markers used to identify a certain variety and/or die stage. Check out the clashed collar with long rim die break on 1922 D Reverse VAM 16 B .
Wow that is a long crack, that rim break is how I would envision it, a long even break, but these look like curtains or layers more than a crack like it must have been chunks right?.

RogerRock
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Re: 1881 O Rim cuds?? What is this

Post by RogerRock » Sat Jul 16, 2022 2:21 am

Die chips which are small irregular pieces of the die broken out.
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impairedsquirrel
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Re: 1881 O Rim cuds?? What is this

Post by impairedsquirrel » Sat Jul 16, 2022 3:22 am

VAM-50a... I lovingly refer to the rim thingies as "cuddlings" and they were one of the main reasons I was driven to prove the VAM-33a didn't exist.
I go totally NUTS for WOW! VAMs!! Or is that from WOW! VAMs?

demetri
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Re: 1881 O Rim cuds?? What is this

Post by demetri » Sun Jul 17, 2022 8:43 pm

impairedsquirrel wrote:
Sat Jul 16, 2022 3:22 am
VAM-50a... I lovingly refer to the rim thingies as "cuddlings" and they were one of the main reasons I was driven to prove the VAM-33a didn't exist.
Ya know, that is EXACTLY where Im stuck, between 50A and 33A, and I WAS leaning towards 33A but TELL ME MORE lol "cuddlings" is a good name for them but there is no mention of them on 50A but do show on images of 33A. Hummmm mow I really confused LOL

fogie
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Re: 1881 O Rim cuds?? What is this

Post by fogie » Sun Jul 17, 2022 10:09 pm

33A was delisted as the same as 50A.

demetri
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Re: 1881 O Rim cuds?? What is this

Post by demetri » Sun Jul 17, 2022 11:10 pm

fogie wrote:
Sun Jul 17, 2022 10:09 pm
33A was delisted as the same as 50A.
ahhhhh I see, I must have missed that. Probable on bottom. Thanks for the update on vam, much appreciated. Pretty cool "cuddlings". Does anyone know how this happens without showing loss of metal or something.

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HawkeEye
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Re: 1881 O Rim cuds?? What is this

Post by HawkeEye » Mon Jul 18, 2022 7:51 pm

I am having a little trouble following the back and forth here, but if we believe this to be a 50A then I have a lot of comparison material http://www.1881o.com/50a.html

27 coins and 11 of them are AU58 or above.

Both sides of this coin show a little bit of the issue being described http://www.1881o.com/33165062_63_50a.html
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demetri
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Re: 1881 O Rim cuds?? What is this

Post by demetri » Mon Jul 18, 2022 10:59 pm

HawkeEye wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 7:51 pm
I am having a little trouble following the back and forth here, but if we believe this to be a 50A then I have a lot of comparison material http://www.1881o.com/50a.html

27 coins and 11 of them are AU58 or above.

Both sides of this coin show a little bit of the issue being described http://www.1881o.com/33165062_63_50a.html
1881-0 is such a valuable resource, was so glad to find it. I forgot to look at the bottom for past vam designations and was stuck between 33B and 50A but realize now it is a 50A but it was the rim cuddlings that drape the edge of the coin I was trying to understand, I thought they were cuds.

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HawkeEye
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Re: 1881 O Rim cuds?? What is this

Post by HawkeEye » Fri Jul 29, 2022 6:16 pm

Well RogerRock's explanation is probably the best I have seen, and a little more restrictive than I have seen in the past. The rest we would probably label as early indications of die failure at the rim.
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