Likely Unlisted 1891-CC

[alefzero]

Didn't think I would discover another 1891-CC after I discovered the VAM-8A. But I think I do have another.

This is the coin. I will go through the details in reply posts.

P47037130-obv-jbc.jpg (266.39 KiB) Viewed 1176 times

P47037130-rev-jbc.jpg (273.21 KiB) Viewed 1176 times

[DHalladay]

Pretty coin! And I look forward to the ensuing discussion/evidence/opinions.
Do I see weak clashing evidence at Liberty's throat and coming out of the top of the eagle's right wing?

[alefzero]

The obverse is III(2)4, the same as on the VAM-3, Spitting Eagle. Near date, doubled profile, doubled ear bottom, die scratch in front of the eye and other die scratches.

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P47037130-2-jbc.jpg (148.5 KiB) Viewed 1169 times

P47037130-9-jbc.jpg (223.48 KiB) Viewed 1169 times

P47037130-3-jbc.jpg (97.59 KiB) Viewed 1169 times

[alefzero]

The reverse is not a spitting eagle. It has a left tiled CC, nearly touching the ribbon. The second C is doubled (top). This particular stage I have has a slightly tilted field at S OF.

My suspicion is that this is the coin Leroy saw and originally catalogued as VAM-2, but the doubled profile and C/C were missed because of the grade of the coin examined and/or the listing details at that time. I forget if I had noted this reverse used in a different year as well, but I don't think so.

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[Albannach]

Already sounds like re~classification
vam3 by the description rev gets 3A

TDITD

[alefzero]

P47037130-11-jbc.jpg (143.64 KiB) Viewed 1149 times

Already sounds like re~classification
vam3 by the description rev gets 3A

TDITD

That was my initial direction, except that the reverse is not the same, while similar. Dissimilar legend cracks, no leg/arrowshaft gouge on this one. Gouges in the eagle's nostril and eye, that are not on the spitting eagle reverse. The left C also exhibits no doubling and the two Cs are spread further apart on the spitting eagle reverse die.

It is possible that the reverse die was cleaned up, removing the "spit" and adding the gouges.

This will require detailed study. I should have asked Brent to bring a VAM-3 to Denver where we will be this week, going over coins. Might need to buy or borrow one at the show bourse for comparative study.

So, this will either result in:

(1) Three VAM-3, one being the virgin reverse, another the spitting eagle, and this tilted field.

(2) A new VAM-9, should this reverse be confirmed as distinct.

If it were not for the doubled profile and C/C it could have resulted in a splitting of VAM-2 into Die 1 and Die2 pairings. However, the VAM-3 note on clear and filled C, might go away, as I am guessing the clear one might have been this die pair previously observed and attributed as VAM-2. But that is speculative.

[impairedsquirrel]

It is possible that the reverse die was cleaned up, removing the "spit" and adding the gouges.

I thought the 7 came after the 3?

[alefzero]

It is possible that the reverse die was cleaned up, removing the "spit" and adding the gouges.

I thought the 7 came after the 3?

Exactly. I went over this quite a bit and my reasoning is a little out of sequence.

Talked with fogie. He actually has a VAM-3 with him and we will be able to compare the two side-by-side tomorrow. He can send it (them) in and get another technical discovery. (The main thing is that he won't need to go look for one, like with most new listings.)

[fogie]

Sometimes I really am spoiled!

[alefzero]

Here is the trueview, for another view.

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[alefzero]

Fogie and I went over this last Wednesday in Denver. He had all of his VAMs of the date and I had this coin.

It appears this has been attributed in the past as VAM-2. However, it is now known to be at odds with the listing. The obverse is completely retain to be III(2)4, same as ine obverse fie used on the VAM-3 Spitting Eagle, not III(2)2. The reverse has a right C/C. While it might have been the coin originally examined for the listing, it does not match the listing.

One option would be to revise VAM-2, with the obverse designation changed and the C(3)b re erse description revised, as VAM-2 is the only variety of the date with it. The other option might be to assign this to a new VAM-9 and retire VAM-2. Probably the former would be better. The main goal is for the listings to be complete and correct. Either will accomplish that.

[chgolaw1]

Very nice CC. What grade is it?

[alefzero]

Very nice CC. What grade is it?

PCGS MS64 I seem to recall. The cert lookup will have it. I have not revisited the show inventory since returning from Denver.

[messydesk]

I'd have to see it, but I'd probably revise VAM 2, because if the current VAM 2 listing is inaccurate, it's fixable so that it reflects exactly one die pair.

[alefzero]

If you have a VAM-3, I could send this one. (obverse confirmation) Or fogie could send two VAM-2 ones (with and without fill in the CC- same die) and a VAM-3 (as I probably need to sell this one and not have it out of pocket long).

I agree that revising VAM-2 is better, especially with legacy attributions out there.

[messydesk]

I would arrange with Fogie to have necessary pieces sent for comparison.