Likely Unlisted 1891-CC

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alefzero
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Likely Unlisted 1891-CC

Post by alefzero » Tue May 02, 2023 7:40 pm

Didn't think I would discover another 1891-CC after I discovered the VAM-8A. But I think I do have another.

This is the coin. I will go through the details in reply posts.
P47037130-obv-jbc.jpg
P47037130-obv-jbc.jpg (266.39 KiB) Viewed 1174 times
P47037130-rev-jbc.jpg
P47037130-rev-jbc.jpg (273.21 KiB) Viewed 1174 times
Last edited by alefzero on Tue May 02, 2023 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

DHalladay
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Re: Likely Unlisted 1891-CC

Post by DHalladay » Tue May 02, 2023 7:44 pm

Pretty coin! And I look forward to the ensuing discussion/evidence/opinions. :)
Do I see weak clashing evidence at Liberty's throat and coming out of the top of the eagle's right wing?
Last edited by DHalladay on Tue May 02, 2023 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
When in doubt... don't.

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alefzero
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Re: Likely Unlisted 1891-CC

Post by alefzero » Tue May 02, 2023 7:45 pm

The obverse is III(2)4, the same as on the VAM-3, Spitting Eagle. Near date, doubled profile, doubled ear bottom, die scratch in front of the eye and other die scratches.
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P47037130-2-jbc.jpg
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P47037130-9-jbc.jpg
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P47037130-3-jbc.jpg
P47037130-3-jbc.jpg (97.59 KiB) Viewed 1167 times

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alefzero
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Re: Likely Unlisted 1891-CC

Post by alefzero » Tue May 02, 2023 7:52 pm

The reverse is not a spitting eagle. It has a left tiled CC, nearly touching the ribbon. The second C is doubled (top). This particular stage I have has a slightly tilted field at S OF.

My suspicion is that this is the coin Leroy saw and originally catalogued as VAM-2, but the doubled profile and C/C were missed because of the grade of the coin examined and/or the listing details at that time. I forget if I had noted this reverse used in a different year as well, but I don't think so.
P47037130-7-jbc.jpg
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P47037130-5-jbc.jpg
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P47037130-6-jbc.jpg
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P47037130-10-jbc.jpg
P47037130-10-jbc.jpg (88.94 KiB) Viewed 1162 times

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Albannach
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Re: Likely Unlisted 1891-CC

Post by Albannach » Tue May 02, 2023 7:53 pm

Already sounds like re~classification
vam3 by the description rev gets 3A

TDITD

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alefzero
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Re: Likely Unlisted 1891-CC

Post by alefzero » Tue May 02, 2023 8:09 pm

P47037130-11-jbc.jpg
P47037130-11-jbc.jpg (143.64 KiB) Viewed 1147 times
Albannach wrote:
Tue May 02, 2023 7:53 pm
Already sounds like re~classification
vam3 by the description rev gets 3A

TDITD
That was my initial direction, except that the reverse is not the same, while similar. Dissimilar legend cracks, no leg/arrowshaft gouge on this one. Gouges in the eagle's nostril and eye, that are not on the spitting eagle reverse. The left C also exhibits no doubling and the two Cs are spread further apart on the spitting eagle reverse die.

It is possible that the reverse die was cleaned up, removing the "spit" and adding the gouges.

This will require detailed study. I should have asked Brent to bring a VAM-3 to Denver where we will be this week, going over coins. Might need to buy or borrow one at the show bourse for comparative study.

So, this will either result in:

(1) Three VAM-3, one being the virgin reverse, another the spitting eagle, and this tilted field.

(2) A new VAM-9, should this reverse be confirmed as distinct.

If it were not for the doubled profile and C/C it could have resulted in a splitting of VAM-2 into Die 1 and Die2 pairings. However, the VAM-3 note on clear and filled C, might go away, as I am guessing the clear one might have been this die pair previously observed and attributed as VAM-2. But that is speculative.

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impairedsquirrel
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Re: Likely Unlisted 1891-CC

Post by impairedsquirrel » Tue May 02, 2023 10:40 pm

alefzero wrote:
Tue May 02, 2023 8:09 pm
It is possible that the reverse die was cleaned up, removing the "spit" and adding the gouges.
I thought the 7 came after the 3?
I go totally NUTS for WOW! VAMs!! Or is that from WOW! VAMs?

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alefzero
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Re: Likely Unlisted 1891-CC

Post by alefzero » Tue May 02, 2023 11:54 pm

impairedsquirrel wrote:
Tue May 02, 2023 10:40 pm
alefzero wrote:
Tue May 02, 2023 8:09 pm
It is possible that the reverse die was cleaned up, removing the "spit" and adding the gouges.
I thought the 7 came after the 3?
Exactly. I went over this quite a bit and my reasoning is a little out of sequence.

Talked with fogie. He actually has a VAM-3 with him and we will be able to compare the two side-by-side tomorrow. He can send it (them) in and get another technical discovery. (The main thing is that he won't need to go look for one, like with most new listings.)

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fogie
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Re: Likely Unlisted 1891-CC

Post by fogie » Wed May 03, 2023 12:52 am

Sometimes I really am spoiled! :!:
Have a great day!

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alefzero
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Re: Likely Unlisted 1891-CC

Post by alefzero » Wed May 03, 2023 2:14 am

Here is the trueview, for another view.
P47037130-tv.jpg
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alefzero
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Re: Likely Unlisted 1891-CC

Post by alefzero » Sun May 07, 2023 8:21 pm

Fogie and I went over this last Wednesday in Denver. He had all of his VAMs of the date and I had this coin.

It appears this has been attributed in the past as VAM-2. However, it is now known to be at odds with the listing. The obverse is completely retain to be III(2)4, same as ine obverse fie used on the VAM-3 Spitting Eagle, not III(2)2. The reverse has a right C/C. While it might have been the coin originally examined for the listing, it does not match the listing.

One option would be to revise VAM-2, with the obverse designation changed and the C(3)b re erse description revised, as VAM-2 is the only variety of the date with it. The other option might be to assign this to a new VAM-9 and retire VAM-2. Probably the former would be better. The main goal is for the listings to be complete and correct. Either will accomplish that.

chgolaw1
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Re: Likely Unlisted 1891-CC

Post by chgolaw1 » Sun May 07, 2023 8:32 pm

Very nice CC. What grade is it?

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alefzero
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Re: Likely Unlisted 1891-CC

Post by alefzero » Sun May 07, 2023 9:26 pm

chgolaw1 wrote:
Sun May 07, 2023 8:32 pm
Very nice CC. What grade is it?
PCGS MS64 I seem to recall. The cert lookup will have it. I have not revisited the show inventory since returning from Denver.

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messydesk
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Re: Likely Unlisted 1891-CC

Post by messydesk » Sun May 07, 2023 9:55 pm

I'd have to see it, but I'd probably revise VAM 2, because if the current VAM 2 listing is inaccurate, it's fixable so that it reflects exactly one die pair.
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alefzero
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Re: Likely Unlisted 1891-CC

Post by alefzero » Mon May 08, 2023 12:25 am

If you have a VAM-3, I could send this one. (obverse confirmation) Or fogie could send two VAM-2 ones (with and without fill in the CC- same die) and a VAM-3 (as I probably need to sell this one and not have it out of pocket long).

I agree that revising VAM-2 is better, especially with legacy attributions out there.

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Re: Likely Unlisted 1891-CC

Post by messydesk » Mon May 08, 2023 1:57 am

I would arrange with Fogie to have necessary pieces sent for comparison.
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