1889 O with Rotated Reverse, Guess the grade!

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jrfaust
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1889 O with Rotated Reverse, Guess the grade!

Post by jrfaust » Wed Feb 22, 2023 10:18 pm

Does anyone know if there is a VAM for an 1889 O with a rotated die? Check this out! Can you guess the grade? :D
1889 O Rotated Die OB.jpg
1889 O Rotated Die OB.jpg (152.81 KiB) Viewed 1068 times
1889 O Rotated Die RV.jpg
1889 O Rotated Die RV.jpg (163.38 KiB) Viewed 1068 times
1889 O Rotated Die MM.jpg
1889 O Rotated Die MM.jpg (115.73 KiB) Viewed 1068 times

morganman
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Re: 1889 O with Rotated Reverse, Guess the grade!

Post by morganman » Wed Feb 22, 2023 10:41 pm

Now thats one ugly mess, of which grade i wouldnt hazard a guess
:|

DHalladay
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Re: 1889 O with Rotated Reverse, Guess the grade!

Post by DHalladay » Wed Feb 22, 2023 10:47 pm

AG03.

Rotated reverses are rarely found on anything but O-mints – a very notable exception being 1878-CC – and 1889 is one of the known rotation dates.
Last edited by DHalladay on Thu Feb 23, 2023 1:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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morganman
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Re: 1889 O with Rotated Reverse, Guess the grade!

Post by morganman » Wed Feb 22, 2023 11:35 pm

For several yrs Lowball Morgans have brought premiums as collectors
bought into the hype of a niche mkt. Similiar to huge premiums on some
toned/rainbo Morgans. A niche is just that a small faction of collectors that
develop a apetite for such craziness, that rarely is sustainable

A testiment to collectors with way to much time on hands, and i believe bad
for business inlong run IMHO. Its been tough enough to see prices plummet
as silver dropped like a bomb for 10 yr+.

Why the need to develop another category, when good solid grade coins
have provided value for decades. guess boredom overtakes common sense.
I also bet gettingyour money back from these niche purchases isnt going to
happen overall, so its buyer beware , your treading on thin ground. IMHO
:|

lured_in_again
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Re: 1889 O with Rotated Reverse, Guess the grade!

Post by lured_in_again » Wed Feb 22, 2023 11:52 pm

I tend to pick up rotated reverses when I find them. CW vs CCW has confuzzled me. If you flip them over top to bottom, just use the clock to determine CW or CCW? 3 o'clock would be 90 degrees CW? 9 o'clock would be 90 degrees CCW? The coin shown would be about 45 degrees CW?

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UNCLE BINGO
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Re: 1889 O with Rotated Reverse, Guess the grade!

Post by UNCLE BINGO » Thu Feb 23, 2023 12:44 am

I'll give it a 4 , but I learned to over-grade them from a certain TPG Trend I noticed , O wait, you mentioned low ball

. I mean I'll give it a 2 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Whoever decided they are worth more the lower they go the last couple of grades had a masters degree in marketing
" May your clashes be EDS , your breaks be LDS , and your wife not have PMS over your collecting habits! " ;)

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UNCLE BINGO
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Re: 1889 O with Rotated Reverse, Guess the grade!

Post by UNCLE BINGO » Thu Feb 23, 2023 1:03 am

And no offense to those who collect them at all . I have a 79 cc might go good in someones low ball set . I'll have to buy a better one in plastic some day , or maybe trade someone who collects the low ones and get a better one ????? :lol: :lol: :lol: It could happen ...
" May your clashes be EDS , your breaks be LDS , and your wife not have PMS over your collecting habits! " ;)

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DarksideVAM
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Re: 1889 O with Rotated Reverse, Guess the grade!

Post by DarksideVAM » Thu Feb 23, 2023 1:35 am

I like it. AG3. That rim is toast. I enjoy the well used examples myself.

RogerRock
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Re: 1889 O with Rotated Reverse, Guess the grade!

Post by RogerRock » Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:28 am

lured_in_again wrote:
Wed Feb 22, 2023 11:52 pm
I tend to pick up rotated reverses when I find them. CW vs CCW has confuzzled me. If you flip them over top to bottom, just use the clock to determine CW or CCW? 3 o'clock would be 90 degrees CW? 9 o'clock would be 90 degrees CCW? The coin shown would be about 45 degrees CW.
Rotations are calculated in CW or CCW with the reverse die assumed to be rotated. 3 o'clock would be 90 degrees CCW. 9 o'clock would be 90 degrees CW. The coin shown would be about 45 degrees CW at 7:30 o"clock

The direction taken by the rotated design can only turn left (CW) or right (CCW). A full 180 degree rotation is impossible to ascertain rotation direction (Medallic Alignment). Dynamic die rotations sometimes involve both CW and CCW reverse die rotations when proof exists from identical die pairs. My earlier posts on the 1976 Ike $Clashed die letter transfer D WE shows the Indented PCGS specimen with 90 degree CW rotation and the mirror brockage NGC specimen with a 100 degree CCW rotation. Identical Clashed dies in combination with dynamic rotated reverses are known as ATYPICAL.
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morganman
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Re: 1889 O with Rotated Reverse, Guess the grade!

Post by morganman » Thu Feb 23, 2023 11:21 am

Rotation morgans are really cool & the real deal worthy of premiums
received Thanks for sharing this worn out low ball !!!
:|

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jrfaust
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Re: 1889 O with Rotated Reverse, Guess the grade!

Post by jrfaust » Thu Feb 23, 2023 1:57 pm

Thanks to all of you for your comments, super educational! I just received this coin in hand yesterday. I bought it off the bay along with a 1922 Peace for $52. I bought the pair mainly for the uncirculated 22 and thought the low ball 89 was just a little bonus. Took me a few minutes to realize the rotation :o Shaaaawing! So cool! I'm not a low-ball chaser, but I can understand why one would be. Makes you think how many pockets, who's pocket, how many purchases, what purchases, etc this coin has seen since 1889. Wonder if in all that time anyone notice the rotation. :popcorn:

Again, thank you all for your comments! :D

The Jodster ;)

lured_in_again
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Re: 1889 O with Rotated Reverse, Guess the grade!

Post by lured_in_again » Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:56 pm

It appears to me the 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock positions are not good to use in "referencing" rotation as they can be CCW or CW 90 degrees from the top or bottom, depending on which reference point is used. If the coin in the posting is 45 degrees CW as stated, is the tail of the eagle the reference point, being 45 degrees CW from the normal vertical position? The head at 1:30 is also 45 degrees CW from vertical (but is the 3 o'clock position considered CCW from the bottom of eagle, or CW from the top of the design) Consider me still confused..... also noting CCW or CW direction is not noted on most certified holders I have seen (just called rotated) but here at VW we have degrees and direction noted in the VAMs.

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messydesk
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Re: 1889 O with Rotated Reverse, Guess the grade!

Post by messydesk » Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:11 pm

Looks like AG3 to me. The 89-O page talks about VAMs with rotated dies right at the top. Don't even have to search the wiki.
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RogerRock
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Re: 1889 O with Rotated Reverse, Guess the grade!

Post by RogerRock » Thu Feb 23, 2023 9:11 pm

lured_in_again wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:56 pm
It appears to me the 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock positions are not good to use in "referencing" rotation as they can be CCW or CW 90 degrees from the top or bottom, depending on which reference point is used. If the coin in the posting is 45 degrees CW as stated, is the tail of the eagle the reference point, being 45 degrees CW from the normal vertical position? The head at 1:30 is also 45 degrees CW from vertical (but is the 3 o'clock position considered CCW from the bottom of eagle, or CW from the top of the design) Consider me still confused..... also noting CCW or CW direction is not noted on most certified holders I have seen (just called rotated) but here at VW we have degrees and direction noted in the VAMs.
Very simply put, the entire die design rotates either clockwise or counterclockwise. The reference point is considered to be the normal coin alignment. I happen to own an 1889 O Morgan $ with a 90 degree CW rotation. The reverse design is perfectly horizontal pointing toward 9 o'clock which places AMERICA at the 6 o'clock position.

Remember, coin designs use the laws of physics as defined by gravity. The morgan $ reverse depicts an open winged eagle perched on an olive branch with arrows. Naturally,according to gravity, clockwise 90 degree rotation of the eagle will place the eagle's tail toward the 9 o'clock position.
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lured_in_again
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Re: 1889 O with Rotated Reverse, Guess the grade!

Post by lured_in_again » Fri Feb 24, 2023 12:04 am

I guess I consider rotation to be based on where the head of the eagle goes in relation to normal position. Anything starting at the top and moving toward the 6 to the right is CW. Starting at the top and moving backward toward the left is CCW. I use the head of the eagle because I thought that is where the degrees of rotation are measured from. Is the rotation measured from the bottom ( the 6 on the clock, heading up toward the 12?) I think we are talking the same direction of rotation, just a different reference point to begin from. http://rotateddies.50webs.com/04o-ongc65sdb.jpg

lured_in_again
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Re: 1889 O with Rotated Reverse, Guess the grade!

Post by lured_in_again » Thu Nov 16, 2023 5:32 pm

Digging up an old thread due to results from my latest ANACS submission. I sent in 4 rotated Morgans and will be looking to ID the VAMs. Noted there is a set for them on SSDC registry, will have to see where they fit in (one 1889, two 1889o and an 1890 o)

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Albannach
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Re: 1889 O with Rotated Reverse, Guess the grade!

Post by Albannach » Thu Nov 16, 2023 7:36 pm

This is what the press spits out while the operator is crawling around looking for the set screw…

:lol: :lol: :lol:

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