Please consider for DISCOVERY

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MarkyB
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Re: Please consider for DISCOVERY

Post by MarkyB » Sun Jan 22, 2023 3:45 am

messydesk wrote:
Sat Jan 21, 2023 10:35 pm
There are more die pairs in his study identified than are currently listed in the VAM catalog, so there are new die pairs out there that could be listed. I'm not sure that this is one of them.
Thanks JB. Is that die pair study material available to me? If not, what would you do if in my shoes? VM 2.0 is all know for attributing my coins. Sending it to you is certainly an option.
TIA

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messydesk
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Re: Please consider for DISCOVERY

Post by messydesk » Sun Jan 22, 2023 4:21 am

MarkyB wrote:
Sun Jan 22, 2023 3:45 am
Thanks JB. Is that die pair study material available to me? If not, what would you do if in my shoes? VM 2.0 is all know for attributing my coins. Sending it to you is certainly an option.
TIA
Unfortunately, the guide is not redistributable. If you were to send it to me, I'd figure out what to call it.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: Please consider for DISCOVERY

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Sun Jan 22, 2023 1:32 pm

Let me try and help for once. What I do is look for die pairs, not VAMs. I try to identify the different obverse and reverse dies used, and different die pairs, some of which share dies with different die pairs. So while I am NOT trying to find examples of listed VAMs, a natural outcome is to see if a die pair is a listed VAM, but again, this is NOT why I do die studies.

In the case of your coin, the subject of this thread, it just so happens I called it die pair 25. Your obverse and reverse match up. This has no meaning in the context of VAM listings. It is just the order in which I found examples. I only found two examples while looking at 1070 1897-S coins, which usually means it is not common.

But from what I could tell, it is a "plain-jane" die pair, with no mention-able features other than date placement and M/M placement. For what it is worth, the subject coin is an EDS of the die pair. LDS coins come with some very distinct obverse die cracks. The thread-like oon your coin, if that is what it is, apparently disintegrates (weakens, disappears)with die wear.

Since there did not appear to be any remarkable die markers, I suggested it could fit into either VAM-1 or VAM-3. Either of these VAM listings can be considered "generic" listings, meaning multiple die pairs can exist, but maybe not.

Nothing I do in my die studies has any meaning or weight in actual VAM listings, only JB or JR can make that determination.

That is what I know about your coin. My intention was NOT to offend anyone, but apparently I did, in which I apologize. I am referred to as the site curmudgeon for a reason.

keilg1
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Re: Please consider for DISCOVERY

Post by keilg1 » Sun Jan 22, 2023 2:44 pm

Combining many thoughts and threads into one posting.

Using phrases like "Buck up mate" will not advance ANY conversation. Please everyone stop with this type of banter. We all need to be careful with our words - 'Please consider for discovery' is a lot different than 'Hey, anyone seen something like this before?'

Next, if someone says they are 'tired' (or some other word) of something, let them be what the are. I echo the sentiment because education is a never-ending thing. Instead of telling someone to do or not do something, say "OK" - then openly and curiously explore the why... Asking to help, explaining with compassion, remembering the days when we were all more ignorant than we might be today.

We best address the learning by educating, not by berating or demeaning. For example, I've gently added in my own words the desire to encourage others to use their microscopes more judiciously than some (and, yes, newer) members are. As @messydesk and the other experts have noted, not all minor nuances of all coins are included in all descriptions because they'd become unwieldingly long and confusing. There is a difference between noting new things and microVAMming (as we eventually learn - or not). We're under a continual quest to better objectify stuff that is clearly subjective.

We need to be careful labeling what we see - this is not a 'bearded eagle' (like the 1895-O VAM-3A)... as mentioned that is a minor clash mark and in order to become any type of variety (or subvariery) all clashes must have letter transfer. But it can be seen as a bearded eagle... Similarly, die file/polish lines are not listable - they can help in die studies, but they're not listable as stand-alone features.

There is a lot to this community that is good and positive. And much that can be improved. Yes?

Let's advance together, learning and sharing as we have done for decades (for some of us) or days (for others).

RogerB
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Re: Please consider for DISCOVERY

Post by RogerB » Sun Jan 22, 2023 3:53 pm

RE: "Why is it that everything with new comers seems to be a new discovery? I encourage enthusiasm, but get tired of the constant "discovery?" question."

This is encouraged because there is no simple, illustrated guide to the known varieties that are visually clear for new participants. To be effective, the same guide has to include non-VAM varieties that are often seen. (See the 1921 Peace dollar thread.) Absent such a publication, experienced VAM collectors will have to be patient and tolerant of repetitive "discoveries" and fundamental confusion.

PickNGrin
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Re: Please consider for DISCOVERY

Post by PickNGrin » Sun Jan 22, 2023 4:54 pm

MarkyB wrote:
Sat Jan 21, 2023 9:59 pm
Per new discovery guide, posting this here. 1897-S received today. The MM and date I consider within normal range. I'm fairly certain that's an unlisted eagle neck gouge and the wing-neck gap seems very unique with a heavy scratch up top. Remnents of a chip and clash on the left wreath. Lines around the 7th right star I find interesting. No cracks or breaks. Thread-like impression near cotton blossom. More data available upon request. Could this be my first??
MarkyB

Continue the search! Our industry depends on all Vammers.(Experienced and newer members). This one has a chance. Send it in and good luck!

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UNCLE BINGO
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Re: Please consider for DISCOVERY

Post by UNCLE BINGO » Sun Jan 22, 2023 5:50 pm

Thank you for that explanation LDMG.....
I noticed something and I will apologize in advance for being an idiot . In a brief scan of looking for Marky b I saw a threadlike impression listed for VAM 16 , I wanna say the page said the obverse was also shared with Vam 3 ....the trouble with what my in experienced self saw was the plate photo was garbage and although the arrow was clearly not in the same place as his thread pictured . I have no idea how long the threadlike impression called out in the description for the vam may have been when photographed .
" May your clashes be EDS , your breaks be LDS , and your wife not have PMS over your collecting habits! " ;)

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messydesk
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Re: Please consider for DISCOVERY

Post by messydesk » Sun Jan 22, 2023 6:23 pm

PickNGrin wrote:
Sun Jan 22, 2023 4:54 pm
MarkyB wrote:
Sat Jan 21, 2023 9:59 pm
Per new discovery guide, posting this here. 1897-S received today. The MM and date I consider within normal range. I'm fairly certain that's an unlisted eagle neck gouge and the wing-neck gap seems very unique with a heavy scratch up top. Remnents of a chip and clash on the left wreath. Lines around the 7th right star I find interesting. No cracks or breaks. Thread-like impression near cotton blossom. More data available upon request. Could this be my first??
MarkyB

Continue the search! Our industry depends on all Vammers.(Experienced and newer members). This one has a chance. Send it in and good luck!
So here's my reaction to this with an explanation that I hope makes sense. That a coin has a "chance" at being listed as a new discovery isn't something that collectors should aspire to. There have been thousands of discoveries since the last printed VAM book was published in 1992. Many have been delisted. Others have served only to add confusion to the catalog. Of those, many have been met on VAMWorld current and past with congratulations. Doesn't make much sense.

The new discovery submission rules take this into account. @MarkyB, thank you for following them. The "trial by fire" for a new listing is meant to be a collegial, yet adversarial, screening process to prevent cataloging mistakes and confusion. Of course, adversarial is much easier than collegial, especially online. The process should also prevent me from receiving what I've called "spaghetti submissions," so named after the apocryphal test for spaghetti being done wherein you throw it against a wall and see what sticks, since you otherwise have no clue how to cook pasta, much less the rest of a meal of which it would be a component.

What this coin has a "chance" at doing is clearing up ambiguity in the existing catalog. As mentioned earlier the die pair as observed with photos is most likely VAM 1 or 3, but the VAM catalog wasn't effective at illustrating that (see also RogerB's comment), hence this thread. This coin will answer that question and the answer will make things clear for future collectors. I will gladly look at this coin and put it where it belongs in the catalog. If I call it VAM 1, the thanks for making the catalog more robust should be as enthusiastic as congratulations have been for making it bigger.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

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PacificWR
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Re: Please consider for DISCOVERY

Post by PacificWR » Mon Jan 23, 2023 7:59 pm

Oh, close the front door.

MarkyB
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Re: Please consider for DISCOVERY

Post by MarkyB » Mon Aug 07, 2023 3:39 pm

Just an FYI....this coin is on the way to JB. Last night I also noticed the middle talon on the right foot is missing. At first I thought PMD but upon closer inspection, it looks like it was carved away. Wish I'd taken a picture.

Fingers crossed...sort of a bucket list thing for me and not so much a chance for JB to crush my hopes and dreams.

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UNCLE BINGO
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Re: Please consider for DISCOVERY

Post by UNCLE BINGO » Mon Aug 07, 2023 5:13 pm

I still really like that coin, no matter what it gets called. Good luck!
" May your clashes be EDS , your breaks be LDS , and your wife not have PMS over your collecting habits! " ;)

MarkyB
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Re: Please consider for DISCOVERY

Post by MarkyB » Tue Aug 08, 2023 12:40 am

Thanks UB. It's one of my favorites. She got a little color around the date that looks like blood. I imagine she was in a pocket during a gunfight. Poor fella.....

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