Does anybody know if this is a New VAM for 1921 peace dollar

[Malachi35]

I HAVE A 1921 PEACE DOLLAR THAT HAS A LARGE CLASHED SPIKE COMING OUT OF THE RIGHT WING TIP ANY IDEAS?

[Malachi35]

Here is a new photo

[VamHelsing]

Looks fake to me.

[messydesk]

Looks fake to me.

I don't have any reason to believe it's fake based on the pictures. Regarding whether or not it's anything new, what specifically do you see that makes you think it might be?

[Malachi35]

I been in the coin business for quite a few years and now I great deal I'm a 100% sure it's real but to answer your question messydesk I'm referring to the spike on the right tip of the wing I'll attach a picture with it circled. Thanks in advance I checked over the Vam list on vamworld and can't find none with this spike

[RogerB]

It will help if you post clear photos of the full obv and rev, then go to the details on each side in a separate post.

There appear to be several varieties with this, or nearly identical clashing from the obverse. I have a couple showing differing amounts of abrasion/polishing used to partially remove the clash above the eagle's wing and elsewhere on the rev. Unfortunately, I can't tell one from the others in the VAM listing because they don't reference clear and obvious clashes like on your coin...rather, it's just "VAM1" with a bunch of alpha suffixes.

(Likely my fault -- I give up too easily on this.)

[messydesk]

The single spike from the eagle's shoulder is a clash from the back of Liberty's neck. These aren't cataloged on their own unless they're long enough to go all the way into the letters or there are multiple spikes. There were about 400 die pairs used for 1921 Peace dollars, averaging around 25,000 coins per die pair. The vast majority of these have not been and will not be cataloged in VAM because variations from "normal" are too minor.

[Malachi35]

Ok that's what I figured I was just checking to make sure thanks for your help

[RogerB]

Please permit an outside dissenting opinion.

RE: "These aren't cataloged on their own...." Is one of the omissions that turn away potential new variety collectors. The clear and obvious clashes and cracks are shrugged off, which frustrates new people who "discover" such things and want to learn more. These people are left grasping at anything that might come along instead of finding information and guidance for VAM collectors. The OP's post is exactly that type of dead-end that should be used to help, not hinder.

New or "new-to-variety" collectors need a much smoother and better organized path if VAM specialists expect their hobby niche to grow.

[Malachi35]

Please permit an outside dissenting opinion.

RE: "These aren't cataloged on their own...." Is one of the omissions that turn away potential new variety collectors. The clear and obvious clashes and cracks are shrugged off, which frustrates new people who "discover" such things and want to learn more. These people are left grasping at anything that might come along instead of finding information and guidance for VAM collectors. The OP's post is exactly that type of dead-end that should be used to help, not hinder.

New or "new-to-variety" collectors need a much smoother and better organized path if VAM specialists expect their hobby niche to grow.

Agreed and thanks for everyone's help

[messydesk]

From a cataloging standpoint, there's a balancing act between cataloging everything and creating a manageable catalog. To catalog everything, it's necessary to be able to study a lot of coins at the same time so you can see what everything that's on a particular die. Leroy didn't have this luxury during the 57 years he cataloged varieties, since most coins came to him one or two at a time and weren't his. The line he drew for what was and wasn't going to be cataloged may seem arbitrary, but he felt it necessary to keep things manageable. He also didn't have the vast online repositories of auction photos at his disposal that we now have. These online repositories have made die studies possible that may permit cataloging every die pair. It's a lot of work, but you'll learn a lot.

I encourage the new collector to look at lists like the Top 100 Morgans and Top 50 Peace dollars to get an idea for the things VAM collectors look for. Read the Attribution 101 pages on the wiki, too.

[impairedsquirrel]

From a cataloging standpoint, there's a balancing act between cataloging everything and creating a manageable catalog. To catalog everything, it's necessary to be able to study a lot of coins at the same time so you can see what everything that's on a particular die. Leroy didn't have this luxury during the 57 years he cataloged varieties, since most coins came to him one or two at a time and weren't his. The line he drew for what was and wasn't going to be cataloged may seem arbitrary, but he felt it necessary to keep things manageable. He also didn't have the vast online repositories of auction photos at his disposal that we now have. These online repositories have made die studies possible that may permit cataloging every die pair. It's a lot of work, but you'll learn a lot.

I encourage the new collector to look at lists like the Top 100 Morgans and Top 50 Peace dollars to get an idea for the things VAM collectors look for. Read the Attribution 101 pages on the wiki, too.

Wouldn't it be nice if someone were to lump together all of the most dramatic examples of different listable VAM "types", so beginners could get a feel for what to look for?!? Man, I wish we had a resource like that...

[RogerB]

This: "Wouldn't it be nice if someone were to lump together all of the most dramatic examples of different listable VAM "types", so beginners could get a feel for what to look for?!? Man, I wish we had a resource like that...."

Go beyond the "listable" - those are often arbitrarily, like the 1921 example in the OP's post. Then link those "eye catchers" to known and recognized varieties, so beginners have a group of pathways from first-recognition toward more variety.

In the OP's instance, it appears most of the varieties have been purged as "insufficiently sufficient." So, a path will have to be constructed from the clashed variety that has a lot of obv details on the rev, through polishing/abrading stages, then to look-a-likes. Other easily visible varieties will likely offer easier path construction.

It's up to you guys/gals - I just count beans, but it's disappointing to see so many "never-beens" fly through message boards.

[impairedsquirrel]

This: "Wouldn't it be nice if someone were to lump together all of the most dramatic examples of different listable VAM "types", so beginners could get a feel for what to look for?!? Man, I wish we had a resource like that...."

Go beyond the "listable" - those are often arbitrarily, like the 1921 example in the OP's post. Then link those "eye catchers" to known and recognized varieties, so beginners have a group of pathways from first-recognition toward more variety.

In the OP's instance, it appears most of the varieties have been purged as "insufficiently sufficient." So, a path will have to be constructed from the clashed variety that has a lot of obv details on the rev, through polishing/abrading stages, then to look-a-likes. Other easily visible varieties will likely offer easier path construction.

It's up to you guys/gals - I just count beans, but it's disappointing to see so many "never-beens" fly through message boards.

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[UNCLE BINGO]

Your efforts have not gone unnoticed at all . I will have to buy the book and not just gloss over the list . its just allot of stuff to learn all at once , I hope you understand ... some of us us are just retarded coming into all this , or it could just be me

[UNCLE BINGO]

I do prefer them autographed if you are willing ... i have a little collection of such things from a different hobby .If you are OK with that it would mean allot . PM me if such a thing is possible . thank you !

[impairedsquirrel]

Your efforts have not gone unnoticed at all . I will have to buy the book and not just gloss over the list . its just allot of stuff to learn all at once , I hope you understand ... some of us us are just retarded coming into all this , or it could just be me

Hehe, not to worry, my statements do not pertain to you... it's more an issue where leading people in the hobby tend to forget that this issue was, in fact, addressed to an extent some time ago...
As far as an autographed copy goes, I'd be happy to oblige, but I don't believe I have any copies left. I know a distributor has them listed on eBay and the supply dealer that sets up at the Baltimore shows had a few and Brian Raines had a few, but not sure if either of those guys still have or not.
Also, there was a project starting some time ago to put together a "pocket" guide, but not sure where that stands.

[UNCLE BINGO]

Thank you and to the other esteemed Gentleman who send me a PM , I want to work on that , figure it out, in the near future . I figure no small specialized library is complete with out autograph copies from the authors who specialize in such things . At least whatever I think is important ......That might sound silly but that's my take on it .......Tthe thing is its not a hobby to you guys , more like a life's work , and I kind of understand what that means to some degree....