Trying to determine if this is an N clash

[Jodemyer]

I would like your opinions on these two pics, if this is an N clash or if my eyes are fooling me or if this is pareidolia? Thanks in advance.

[Bigbub]

Looks like an 'n' clash to me.

[Jodemyer]

Thanks Bigbub it's on a 1879-O that I posted on here a week or two ago, still trying to attribute it. The wing clash is like the V-24 but nothing else. That possible n clash has been bugging me and I've looked at it 100 times. lol

[UNCLE BINGO]

You're gonna have to ask one of the experts , the stuff that counts has to be visible with a loupe they say .. I am often left shaking my head at some of the plate photos that have arrows pointing to something that kinda sorta looks like , but that may be because of outdated photographic equipment , there are so many rules its a little tough for the new guys to get a handle on them,,,,, mostly me

[Jodemyer]

Thanks Uncle Bingo, I lightened up the second pic and put the arrows on it to kinda trace out what I see in hand, it is faint

[messydesk]

Ask yourself if the corresponding clash on the reverse lines up with what you think you see on the obverse.

[ljs123]

What JB said.

I don’t think it is a clashed n. I would like to see the reverse clash line.

[Jodemyer]

Thanks messydesk and ljs123. If I looked at it correct I think the ritation is about 2.5 to 3 degrees. But I am not sure. Thankyou all for looking! Here are some pics of reverse clash. (I am just trying to figure out which vam. The beak is still the coolest part to me.)

[ljs123]

The reverse photos confirms my belief that what you see on the obverse is not a clashed n. If there was only one clash event, the reverse clash line should give a different clashed n on the obverse.
Even without the reverse photos, the obverse didn’t look correct for a clashed n to me for two reasons.
1. The “clash n” would be too close to the clash line coming off of the neck. Or another way to say it, the n is too high on the neck compared to where the clash line starts coming off of the neck.
2. The left foot of a clashed n should transfer a pointed foot, not a rounded foot.

[Jodemyer]

Thanks ljs123, I appreciate you checking! Was hoping if it was, It would narrow down my search for the correct Vam!

[UNCLE BINGO]

So I have a extremely NEWB question , and I am not implying anything about this particular coin . How does one check for rotated dies quickly ? IS there truly a center line on a Morgan dollar based off the denitcles or some fixed constant ? Like as in front to back . I mean can you place cross hairs on a transparency or some thing , line one side up perfectly , and just turn in over to see if the other side is perfect ? Do clashes always transfer both front to back like what was suggested above in the correct position one would expect ? . What if only one side shows a clash and the other die gets swapped out . could something possibly wander around if another clash occurred with one side of a previous clash swapped out ???? I am just trying to figure this out really ...... Is this too many questions????? , I figure maybe for the next little while I should just ask them instead of voicing any more opinions , because for the time being it will be much better to stand on the shoulders of Giants .

[UNCLE BINGO]

I guess what I need to do is just photocopy two pictures the exact same size , both front and back of any date . copy them on transparent paper . and pin them in the middle then i might be able to grasp it any rotation imaginable . I did here you say you thought the whatever on his coin was too high because of the neck line clash and i am not arguing at all . i just have to see it ( in real time) from any possible combo i guess to really grasp it , just for my own beginner sanity

[messydesk]

Half way between IB in PLURIBUS is 12:00 on the obverse. The knot on the wreath is 6:00 on the reverse.

[UNCLE BINGO]

Thank you , do they already make something like that ? I'm thinking the true view images would do the trick pretty easy . i just need to find some old transparencies , i put that stuff some where in a box . Just cant remember where the box is

[Jodemyer]

Uncle Bingo I used this and estimated between the shown examples. I had no idea about the rotation degrees but this helped.

http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... ashed_dies

[keilg1]

Don't forget that rotation is one thing, offset dies and rotation creates a whole other beast! The prime example? http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... -O_VAM-30A

Here's a bit of a guide on that one:

87-O VAM-30A clash guide GRed.jpg (132.83 KiB) Viewed 385 times

Sorry the leftside of the picture got cut off somehow...

[UNCLE BINGO]

SO your saying maybe????? I didn't ask a such a stupid question as I was worried I Had ???? Whew that is actually a relief . I apologize if this kind of thing is well known and old hat . Its all new to me so it makes it more about a hunt i guess . And I just cant help myself ....

Note to self here, hit print to fit paper on the settings so the whole image ends up on the transparency, and not cut off. I wished I had time to play with this more this morning cause I still want to do two compass outlines the same size as the parameter of a Morgan dollar but duty calls .... and thank you guys !

IMG_20230106_074609325_2.jpg (115.3 KiB) Viewed 376 times

[UNCLE BINGO]

parlor tricks ,,, I love it man

IMG_20230106_074811841_2.jpg (151.4 KiB) Viewed 373 times

[ljs123]

@UNCLE BINGO

You asked several questions about clashed dies. I don't have time to answer all at once. I will answer one now and come back later to try and answer as many as I can.

"How does one check for rotated dies quickly ?" & "I mean can you place cross hairs on a transparency or some thing , line one side up perfectly , and just turn in over to see if the other side is perfect ?"

I have seen this question come up many times between VW and VW 2.0. Many have posted how they work their magic on their computers or whatever. The way I used to do it was quick & easy. I purchased a rotation tool from Terry Forfa. You can see it on the VW Clashed dies page.
http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... ashed_dies

TF-ClashTool.JPG (148.41 KiB) Viewed 360 times

It is very rare that I use it anymore. I have spent many hours studying clashes. I found it very handy went I did not have as much experience with clashed dies. I am not claiming to be an expert, but I do have a better understanding of what to expect on one side when I see a clash mark on the other side.

[UNCLE BINGO]

Thank you for the reply , I just didn't know if such a thing existed .I did not mean to ask so many questions all at once . After I performed the little parlor trick things really began to actually make sense . I mean I've read a little bit about the subject but know very little other than just reading about it , and looking at the pictures . For the first time many questions I had about the how and why with clashes clicked ..I Still have a long ways to go .. and thank you to my friend from across the pond as well a @messydesk For their insight .