Help- 1880-S Doubled date, medium S centered and upright, slightly high Multiple lettering. Clashed die no letters

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Mike7E
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Help- 1880-S Doubled date, medium S centered and upright, slightly high Multiple lettering. Clashed die no letters

Post by Mike7E » Sun Dec 18, 2022 4:38 pm

Help with 1880-S Doubled date, medium S centered and upright, slightly high
Doubled/tripled/quadrupled lettering. Clashed die - no letter transfer.

Got this PCGS MS64 from a recent Heritage auction as I thought the S looked funky (some of it due to smudges on the slab) but more interesting is that it is clashed. Closer look showed a medium S with lines and the clash has letter transfer at the neck and hair vee. Looked though all the 1880-S VAMs on the page and not found. Please help.
a 1880-S 1.jpg
a 1880-S 1.jpg (118.87 KiB) Viewed 988 times
1 - doubled at bottom of upper crossbar, left side of upright and left top of lower crossbar. Surface doubling lower left of top crossbar.
b 1880-S first 8.jpg
b 1880-S first 8.jpg (182.71 KiB) Viewed 988 times
First 8 - doubled at lower left of upper loop. Small die deterioration bubbles at outside bottom of lower loop.
c 1880-S second 8.jpg
c 1880-S second 8.jpg (201.61 KiB) Viewed 988 times
Second 8 - doubled at lower left outside and inside top of upper loop; mid left and bottom inside of lower loop, die chip beginning where both loops meet on left
d 1880-S 0.jpg
d 1880-S 0.jpg (182.16 KiB) Viewed 988 times
0 - doubled and broken at both sides of outside top with roughness going to inside, upper outside left shows doubling notch, slight doubling both sides inside with a larger mark near bottom left and die deterioration bubbles along right inside edge.
e 1880-S Clash at neck and in.jpg
e 1880-S Clash at neck and in.jpg (187.75 KiB) Viewed 988 times
Clashed die with letter transfers – Strong, but not long, clash mark upper Neck Line with ghost impression of in; st lines at Hair Vee similar to VAM-19A but location different.
See next post
Last edited by Mike7E on Sat Dec 24, 2022 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Mike7E
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Re: Help- 1880-S Doubled date, medium S centered and upright, slightly high Multiple lettering. Clashed die with letters

Post by Mike7E » Sun Dec 18, 2022 4:45 pm

f 1880-S st lines.jpg
f 1880-S st lines.jpg (217.5 KiB) Viewed 985 times
g 1880-S Rt Star 6 tripled.jpg
g 1880-S Rt Star 6 tripled.jpg (191.02 KiB) Viewed 985 times
All obverse stars doubled or tripled
h 1880-S B in PLURIBUS.jpg
h 1880-S B in PLURIBUS.jpg (169.22 KiB) Viewed 985 times
Doubling in E PLURIBUS UNUM with URIBUS UNIM showing doubling to quadrupled at top, B shows this at bottom of upper loop also
i 1880-S line in mouth_clash under lip.jpg
i 1880-S line in mouth_clash under lip.jpg (159.68 KiB) Viewed 985 times
Line in mouth, clash mark under lip, little smoking volcano in nostril
j 1880-S MM position.jpg
j 1880-S MM position.jpg (176.33 KiB) Viewed 985 times
S – Medium S centered and upright, set slightly high. Filled loops, lines inside upper loop, horizontal lines cross over line inside lower loop
see next post

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Mike7E
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Re: Help- 1880-S Doubled date, medium S centered and upright, slightly high Multiple lettering. Clashed die with letters

Post by Mike7E » Sun Dec 18, 2022 4:49 pm

k 1880-S MM.jpg
k 1880-S MM.jpg (168.8 KiB) Viewed 982 times
l 1880-S first T STATES.jpg
l 1880-S first T STATES.jpg (204.16 KiB) Viewed 982 times
Doubling STATES OF with TAT showing tripling towards rim at tops of feet, and some doubling at tops (craze marks appear to be in slab)
m 1880-S Quadrupiled A in AMERICA.jpg
m 1880-S Quadrupiled A in AMERICA.jpg (193.77 KiB) Viewed 982 times
n 1880-S multi C in AMERICA.jpg
n 1880-S multi C in AMERICA.jpg (179.89 KiB) Viewed 982 times
AMERI in AMERICA quadrupled at top, C at least doubled at tops of bottom, A tripled lower inside and A at tops of feet
o 1880-S we.jpg
o 1880-S we.jpg (185.88 KiB) Viewed 982 times
In God we trust doubled towards rim.

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Mike7E
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Re: Help- 1880-S Doubled date, medium S centered and upright, slightly high Multiple lettering. Clashed die with letters

Post by Mike7E » Sun Dec 18, 2022 4:53 pm

p 1880-S Diseased leaves-clash.jpg
p 1880-S Diseased leaves-clash.jpg (178.72 KiB) Viewed 982 times
Doubling on some leaves in each wreath cluster, top right wreath cluster has ‘diseased’ deteriorated leaves. One looks like it took a hit but it is also tripled and irregular at top edge.
q 1880-S leaves not engraved.jpg
q 1880-S leaves not engraved.jpg (167.24 KiB) Viewed 982 times
Leaves above ON not engraved
r 1880-S wing gap.jpg
r 1880-S wing gap.jpg (196.84 KiB) Viewed 982 times
s 1880-S flat area wing.jpg
s 1880-S flat area wing.jpg (186.93 KiB) Viewed 982 times
Right wing doubled at top, marks in wing gap, flattened top edge of left wing mid-wing to wing gap
Both stars doubled
Designer’s initial and mid-section of bow doubled
t 1880-S rt wing body marks.jpg
t 1880-S rt wing body marks.jpg (153.8 KiB) Viewed 982 times
Line at right wing and body
Heritage Full coin pics
1880-S $1 MS64 PCGS. PCGS Population: (66417/54375). NGC Census: | Lot #21439 | Heritage Auctions (ha.com)

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ljs123
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Re: Help- 1880-S Doubled date, medium S centered and upright, slightly high Multiple lettering. Clashed die with letters

Post by ljs123 » Sun Dec 18, 2022 9:54 pm

Wow, great photos.
I see it’s clashed.
I don’t see the letter transfer you referred to.

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Mike7E
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Re: Help- 1880-S Doubled date, medium S centered and upright, slightly high Multiple lettering. Clashed die with letters

Post by Mike7E » Tue Dec 20, 2022 10:12 pm

Lee, thanks for question as I had to look harder at this one before my post and should have explained it better. But, like Thror’s map some letters can only be seen under a crescent moon. Since there is a sharp edged clash I looked for that tic mark from the n under all possible angles with my little Dino-Lite set up and finally realized there is a blob. I guess I’m used to looking for the top of the n further down the neck so it looked in the wrong place at first.
I am attaching a rough hand/mouse drawn pic of the full n and part of the I to compare. I am also posting a pic of the reverse wing to right side of n clash that I should have done before. From this clash it looks like part of the n should be clipped but the blob n looks full. I also tried to mark up an ‘st’ area but that one is weaker. I roughed out something for this one too but there is a lot of metal flow and polish there. The marks above the t redline appear to be the base of the t as seen in the 1880-S VAM-19A. Let me know if you see it too. Thanks
1880-S clash at wing.jpg
1880-S clash at wing.jpg (205.3 KiB) Viewed 934 times
e 1880-S Clash at neck and in markup.jpg
e 1880-S Clash at neck and in markup.jpg (190.88 KiB) Viewed 934 times
e 1880-S Clash at neck and in.jpg
e 1880-S Clash at neck and in.jpg (187.75 KiB) Viewed 934 times
1880-S ST markup2.jpg
1880-S ST markup2.jpg (182.22 KiB) Viewed 934 times
1880-S Bow.jpg
1880-S Bow.jpg (167.58 KiB) Viewed 934 times
Doubled designer's initial (turkey leg) doubling mid bow right

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ljs123
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Re: Help- 1880-S Doubled date, medium S centered and upright, slightly high Multiple lettering. Clashed die with letters

Post by ljs123 » Tue Dec 20, 2022 11:00 pm

I see something in the field where you did an outline. Have no idea what that is.
I have a difficult time believing that is clashed letter transfer.
When you look at the clash line on the reverse going up to the n, the clash line hits in the center of the right leg of the n. So I would expect that half of that n leg would be missing on the obverse. For the entire n to show up on the obverse, I would expect the clash line to be to the right of the letter n on the reverse.

Let me know if this makes sense to you.

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Mike7E
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Re: Help- 1880-S Doubled date, medium S centered and upright, slightly high Multiple lettering. Clashed die with letters

Post by Mike7E » Wed Dec 21, 2022 9:36 pm

Yes, I commented that the clash did not look like the full n should show, but there are too many straight lines at angles in the blob for it to be anything else. Tried to fit the whole I there and part of the n but that didn't work. If I can get my Photoshop loaded (new PC but no CD port and online only the new version that I don't want to pay for since I already have a version) I'll work on the distances from clash to blob and size.

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ljs123
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Re: Help- 1880-S Doubled date, medium S centered and upright, slightly high Multiple lettering. Clashed die with letters

Post by ljs123 » Wed Dec 21, 2022 10:36 pm

Yes, I commented that the clash did not look like the full n should show, but there are too many straight lines at angles in the blob for it to be anything else. Tried to fit the whole I there and part of the n but that didn't work. If I can get my Photoshop loaded (new PC but no CD port and online only the new version that I don't want to pay for since I already have a version) I'll work on the distances from clash to blob and size.
[/quote]


Sorry to be raining on your parade. I think that you are trying to force a clashed letter where it wouldn't be. In other words, you want to see letter transfer, so you are seeing letter transfer when it isn't there.
Your obverse and reverse clash lines are basically the same location as an 1880 VAM-32A. So, let's look at the 32A to see where your letter transfer should be, and how much letter transfer you should see.


NESVT20100808_1880P_32A_4.jpg
NESVT20100808_1880P_32A_4.jpg (236.09 KiB) Viewed 902 times



LVA_1880-P-VAM-32A-Clashed-In.jpg
LVA_1880-P-VAM-32A-Clashed-In.jpg (112.23 KiB) Viewed 902 times

If you look at the obverse n transfer on the 32A, that is basically where n transfer should be on your coin and the same amount of the leg of the n.
Where you are tracing an n on your coin doesn't match with your clash lines at all.
We already went over the fact that you should only have part of the leg of the n as transfer.
There is a second problem with where you traced the n. Look at your traced n. It is very close to the clash line coming off of the neck. Your traced n is much too high to really be n transfer. Look at the 32A n transfer to get an idea where your n should be (much lower).
I doubt that you have letter transfer, especially in the location that you traced the n.
But you have the advantage of having the coin in front of you. Sometimes it can be very difficult to photograph letter transfer.
Good luck. I hope that you do have letter transfer.

keilg1
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Re: Help- 1880-S Doubled date, medium S centered and upright, slightly high Multiple lettering. Clashed die with letters

Post by keilg1 » Thu Dec 22, 2022 12:48 pm

Agree and hate to add that I don't think any of the potential letter transfers match up. The 80-S series is a wonderful, hot mess with so many varieties and such amazingly high grades to easily find... very shiny, light swirls and reflections wreaking havoc on the most trained eye... I know, I've been down and still live on that road.

You definitely have a coin with appeal and fun - and simultaneous frustration?

Keep hunting for a match and keep the pictures and guesses coming. We're here rooting you on!

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Mike7E
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Re: Help- 1880-S Doubled date, medium S centered and upright, slightly high Multiple lettering. Clashed die with letters

Post by Mike7E » Thu Dec 22, 2022 10:20 pm

Thanks for the guidance and encouragement @ljs123 and @keilg1.
Of course the holy grail of a clash has to be a letter transfer, otherwise no listing for the clash. I am sure I can see faint lines in the Hair Vee that aren't metal flow so I kept looking at the neck.
The 1880-P VAM-32A that you posted is a good example to compare my coin too. The VAM-32A strong clash goes to the bottom tip of the right foot of the n, a near perfect match in position to mine. I brought up pictures of the two obverses, adjusted the sizing to be from the jaw-neck line to the bulge in the neck and found that the obverse clash is in a different location. The VAM-32A clash is at the horizontal neck line just below the jaw-neck juncture with the n clash, as expected, showing the tip of the n. The clash on my coin is a short distance further down. Adjusting the location of the two clashes to each other I found that the blob I was chasing is too high to be an n clash. We would need to see another example to figure out if the blob is really in the die. Looking at the expected location. I can’t see an n clash now. :cry:
The clash location difference is interesting as "matching" clashes should appear in the same relative obverse/reverse positions in different die pairs unless one or both of these die sets were misaligned.
1880-S Clash below jaw neck line.jpg
1880-S Clash below jaw neck line.jpg (180.57 KiB) Viewed 874 times
This coin still has a whole list of things going on regardless of the missing n. Glad I picked it up.
Thanks for the help, if I don’t get any other responses I’ll send it off for review.

keilg1
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Re: Help- 1880-S Doubled date, medium S centered and upright, slightly high Multiple lettering. Clashed die with letters

Post by keilg1 » Fri Dec 23, 2022 8:12 am

Looking forward to learning from you and the experts what this is. As has been said elsewhere - there are many a new variety to be found even after all these years!

demetri
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Re: Help- 1880-S Doubled date, medium S centered and upright, slightly high Multiple lettering. Clashed die with letters

Post by demetri » Sat Dec 24, 2022 5:44 pm

Mike7E wrote:
Wed Dec 21, 2022 9:36 pm
Yes, I commented that the clash did not look like the full n should show, but there are too many straight lines at angles in the blob for it to be anything else. Tried to fit the whole I there and part of the n but that didn't work. If I can get my Photoshop loaded (new PC but no CD port and online only the new version that I don't want to pay for since I already have a version) I'll work on the distances from clash to blob and size.
I keep an old xp with my photoshop 8 but dare not allow the xp online but it works great for PS

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