1896-O oval O mystery coin

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Bigbub
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1896-O oval O mystery coin

Post by Bigbub » Thu Sep 02, 2021 4:57 pm

I ran across this 1896-O coin on eBay. I didn't win the auction, but it is a strange looking coin. Posting here for discussion and opinion.

What caught my attention was the apparent oval O mintmark. The 1896-O VAM 8 oval O has never been seen since it's initial listing and is rumored not to exist. This coin appears to have an oval O, heavy reverse wreath and wing polishing, funky misshapen obverse stars and perhaps date doubling. The photos were taken through a scratched and fuzzy coin case which doesn't help matters.

To me, it appears to have some field attributes of a counterfeit, but it doesn't match any of those current listings.

What do you guys think?
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vampicker
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Re: 1896-O oval O mystery coin

Post by vampicker » Thu Sep 02, 2021 5:51 pm

No mystery here - left stars scream fake of recent origin without question

among other issues
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messydesk
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Re: 1896-O oval O mystery coin

Post by messydesk » Thu Sep 02, 2021 5:52 pm

Definitely a Chinese counterfeit.
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Vam-mysterio
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Re: 1896-O oval O mystery coin

Post by Vam-mysterio » Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:44 pm

Chinese fake
Counterfeit
Not of us mint origin,
Whatever you want to call it
I do like the oval o though
I would probably buy me one
Of these for $5 bucks
For my show and tell collection

Td5173
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Re: 1896-O oval O mystery coin

Post by Td5173 » Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:18 am

No doubt counterfeit coin too flat. I buy them for 5 $ at antique fairs to add to my collection of counterfeit coins.

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messydesk
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Re: 1896-O oval O mystery coin

Post by messydesk » Fri Sep 03, 2021 2:39 am

Td5173 wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:18 am
No doubt counterfeit coin too flat. I buy them for 5 $ at antique fairs to add to my collection of counterfeit coins.
Nobody should ever pay money for these. It only keeps them coming.
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ScottBecker
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Re: 1896-O oval O mystery coin

Post by ScottBecker » Fri Sep 03, 2021 2:43 am

I'm pretty new to Morgans, but one look at the stars on the obv. and you can see something is very wrong!
Last edited by ScottBecker on Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:08 am, edited 2 times in total.

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vampicker
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Re: 1896-O oval O mystery coin

Post by vampicker » Fri Sep 03, 2021 11:52 am

To be clear here, the original post was asking if this thing had any chance of being a contemporary counterfeit
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DHalladay
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Re: 1896-O oval O mystery coin

Post by DHalladay » Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:05 pm

vampicker wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 11:52 am
To be clear here, the original post was asking if this thing had any chance of being a contemporary counterfeit

But John, the original post does not contain the word "contemporary".
When in doubt... don't.

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vampicker
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Re: 1896-O oval O mystery coin

Post by vampicker » Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:09 pm

Yeah, but it's easily implied.
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vamsterdam
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Re: 1896-O oval O mystery coin

Post by vamsterdam » Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:28 pm

It took no time for me to tell this was a modern counterfeit. The surfaces and the obverse devices with that stupid chinese toning(it is so obvious to many of us), coupled with an awful reverse, Say modern. And just because you aren’t as familiar with them as many of us are doesn’t mean that you are less intelligent, or any such thing. It just means you don’t have enough experience with them.

keilg1
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Re: 1896-O oval O mystery coin

Post by keilg1 » Wed Sep 08, 2021 4:20 pm

messydesk wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 2:39 am
Td5173 wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:18 am
No doubt counterfeit coin too flat. I buy them for 5 $ at antique fairs to add to my collection of counterfeit coins.
Nobody should ever pay money for these. It only keeps them coming.
Agree. For the love of everything sacred, please do not do anything to encourage these bad practices. They bleed over to all areas of life, wreaking havoc everywhere.

And, no, this is not an overexaggeration. Dealing with post-traumatic survivors is my job and it is the little 'seemingly insignificant' hits we have in life that add up to the proverbial straw that breaks not just the camel's back, but our spirits...

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madbirder
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Re: 1896-O oval O mystery coin

Post by madbirder » Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:35 pm

Contemporary or modern either way it's counterfeit, so why are there listed "contemporary counterfeits"? There are almost 40 fake coins that have been VAMed and several in the top 100. I can't think of many hobbies where credence is given to fake items, regardless of when they were faked. I can see listing them so we know what to look out for to avoid them but that's not the case. Putting some in the top 100 means that if you want to complete that set you are buying counterfeit coins, knowingly. Precedence has been set for the collection of counterfeit coins, let me know if I'm way off base here but how can we deride counterfeit coins when there is a list of them on this site for people to collect. I don't get it, why is one counterfeit collectable and another not?

keilg1
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Re: 1896-O oval O mystery coin

Post by keilg1 » Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:02 pm

Good points.

Yet, this is akin to saying that because we used to treat lots of illnesses with mercury we should continue. Or leaded gasoline. Hey, it was used in the past, why can't we use it now?

Because past mistakes don't need to be perpetuated?

If Leroy, Michael F, Jeff O and others could go back in time, it would be interesting to hear if they'd repeat their decisions?

I'm with you on no other hobby giving credence to fake items. The 'industries' of politics, modeling, acting and the porn industry aren't really hobbies but they illustrate why we should not encourage it. I'd say they're all a 'no thank you' but this is must my opinion.

Hopefully those who do collect them aren't offended by my ramblings!

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madbirder
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Re: 1896-O oval O mystery coin

Post by madbirder » Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:20 pm

I was thinking along the lines of delist all of these, don't make them collectable. They are fake, end of story. VAMs get killed on a regular basis so why couldn't it not be done with these. Stop using the mercury and the leaded gasoline. Either that or start VAMing Chinese fakes. Double standards isn't the answer. I know it was in the past but that doesn't justify it. I don't want to buy fake coins nor would I. But if I wanted to get the Top 100 it would have to include counterfeit coins (and far more money than I'll ever have :D ).

I'm not a lawyer but I'm pretty sure buying counterfeit money or selling it is illegal. Right now there is a 1902-O VAM for sale for $225. It may not be legal tender anymore but is there a grey area here where you can say it's collectable. Whose fault is that? They are still listed so they are still collectable. You can't sell an Ivory chess set regardless of how nice it is and when it was made. I'm sure this isn't a popular opinion but I have difficulty with saying you can buy this fake but not this fake. Once they were discovered as fake should something not have been done then about it instead of perpetuating them.

I'm sure I could find this out but out of curiosity do TPGs grade these known counterfeits or is there some legal ramifications that could get them in trouble?

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messydesk
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Re: 1896-O oval O mystery coin

Post by messydesk » Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:27 pm

madbirder wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:35 pm
Contemporary or modern either way it's counterfeit, so why are there listed "contemporary counterfeits"? There are almost 40 fake coins that have been VAMed and several in the top 100. I can't think of many hobbies where credence is given to fake items, regardless of when they were faked. I can see listing them so we know what to look out for to avoid them but that's not the case. Putting some in the top 100 means that if you want to complete that set you are buying counterfeit coins, knowingly. Precedence has been set for the collection of counterfeit coins, let me know if I'm way off base here but how can we deride counterfeit coins when there is a list of them on this site for people to collect. I don't get it, why is one counterfeit collectable and another not?
Contemporary counterfeits are those counterfeits that were made at the same time as the originals for the purpose of circulating alongside genuine coins. They exist for many types going back thousands of years and are considered collectible. They are no longer being made. Modern Chinese counterfeits are made to deceive collectors into buying them, and buying them funds their further production, which is detrimental to the hobby.
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blh74
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Re: 1896-O oval O mystery coin

Post by blh74 » Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:12 am

I think Messydesk said it perfectly. Also educating yourself is key.

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madbirder
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Re: 1896-O oval O mystery coin

Post by madbirder » Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:01 pm

I agree that educating yourself is key but until I knew of vamming ( only six months ago) I knew nothing about varieties, just mint marks and dates. I could have bought a contemporary counterfeit and been none the wiser till farther down the road. If I was never interested in varieties and just wanted a to try and get a small set of Morgans with some of the dates and mint marks I could still have ended up with counterfeit coins. Whatever the intentions were a hundred years ago creating a counterfeit is still deceiving. Just because we know about them now doesn't mean we weren't deceived then and now. I think the ones done back then are worse because they are closer to the mark, pun intended, than the poor fakes we are seeing today. Proof of that lies in the fact that they took a while to be discovered. The definition of counterfeit is "spurious, forged, made in semblance of an original with a view to defraud," which is exactly what the fake coins of today are doing and I totally agree it hurts the hobby and in some cases is quite egregious but I fail to understand why ones made over a century ago are less detrimental. When I first saw the link on VAMWorld to a list of counterfeits I was happy as I thought it would point out fakes and what to avoid but come to find they are vammed and in the top 100, accepted. Just trying to get an understanding of the whole contemporary counterfeit thing.

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