1878 8TF VAM?

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Woodsy
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1878 8TF VAM?

Post by Woodsy » Mon Aug 23, 2021 3:35 pm

Hello all. I am new to this forum but not collecting. I’m active on the NGC forum.

I have an 1878 8TF with a doubled reverse that I can’t quite attribute to a VAM. Some of the doubling is MD, but a lot of DD as well. I thought VAM 14 but it doesn’t seem to match. I’ll post some pics and happy to post more of a feature you may need to see that isn’t included. Thanks in advance for the help.
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Woodsy
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Re: 1878 8TF VAM?

Post by Woodsy » Mon Aug 23, 2021 3:36 pm

More pictures
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vamsterdam
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Re: 1878 8TF VAM?

Post by vamsterdam » Mon Aug 23, 2021 4:15 pm

First, You need to determine which reverse you have. Once you narrow it down it will be much easier. This can be determined by the added wing feathers. All 8tf are at least doubled dies. Don’t worry about that part. Seeing the added wing feathers, there are only 2 possibilities. But i will let you research it and see what you find.

Woodsy
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Re: 1878 8TF VAM?

Post by Woodsy » Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:51 pm

vamsterdam wrote:
Mon Aug 23, 2021 4:15 pm
First, You need to determine which reverse you have. Once you narrow it down it will be much easier. This can be determined by the added wing feathers. All 8tf are at least doubled dies. Don’t worry about that part. Seeing the added wing feathers, there are only 2 possibilities. But i will let you research it and see what you find.
Looks like reverse A1C. I actually don’t see any matches to a VAM. I thought the reverse doubling was something of note but it seems like it’s run of the mill.

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messydesk
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Re: 1878 8TF VAM?

Post by messydesk » Mon Aug 23, 2021 6:07 pm

Can you take close-up photos of the engraved feathers? I don't see A1c from here.
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vamsterdam
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Re: 1878 8TF VAM?

Post by vamsterdam » Mon Aug 23, 2021 6:09 pm

Not a1c reverse. I’ll narrow it down for you, and then I’ll let you decide which one it is. Vam 2, or vam 14.3.

Vam-mysterio
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Re: 1878 8TF VAM?

Post by Vam-mysterio » Mon Aug 23, 2021 6:16 pm

1+3+8-2+4-7+7=?
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Btw
Last edited by Vam-mysterio on Mon Aug 23, 2021 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Woodsy
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Re: 1878 8TF VAM?

Post by Woodsy » Mon Aug 23, 2021 9:49 pm

I know I am making this harder than it should be, but both VAMs have polishing lines in the pictures and description that are not present on my coin. If I had to guess, and it would be just that a guess, I would say VAM 2. But I don’t know that it is. I’ve clearly got to study up on my Morgans. I feel like a total newbie haha.

Here is a close up of the added feathers below wing. Is this a late die state given the lack of definition on the added feathers and perhaps accounts for missing polishing lines? The lack of definition was what had me waffling on which reverse.
Attachments
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ljs123
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Re: 1878 8TF VAM?

Post by ljs123 » Mon Aug 23, 2021 10:33 pm

Welcome to VW Woodsy.
Don’t worry about being new here. Keep at it. You’ll get it.
Very nice photos. Do you have a close up of the feathers on the eagle’s left side? Right as you look at the eagle. Both sides are important.

Woodsy
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Re: 1878 8TF VAM?

Post by Woodsy » Mon Aug 23, 2021 11:06 pm

ljs123 wrote:
Mon Aug 23, 2021 10:33 pm
Welcome to VW Woodsy.
Don’t worry about being new here. Keep at it. You’ll get it.
Very nice photos. Do you have a close up of the feathers on the eagle’s left side? Right as you look at the eagle. Both sides are important.
Attachments
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ljs123
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Re: 1878 8TF VAM?

Post by ljs123 » Tue Aug 24, 2021 12:12 am

I love your photos.
I can’t ever get photos that nice.
Look at your last two photos.
Do you still think VAM-2 is a contender?

Woodsy
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Re: 1878 8TF VAM?

Post by Woodsy » Tue Aug 24, 2021 12:16 am

ljs123 wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 12:12 am
I love your photos.
I can’t ever get photos that nice.
Look at your last two photos.
Do you still think VAM-2 is a contender?
I have a nice stereo microscope with camera that makes it easy to get decent pics. It’s sure not my photography skills. I’m actually a seasoned collector just not a Morgan guy. Not sure why this is one is so difficult to me. The few Morgans I have I can usually pretty quickly discern the VAM if any.

Judging no your question the answer should be no, VAM 2 is incorrect 😂. So that leaves us with 14.3. If I am missing some of the polishing lines listed in the VAM description is that attributable to die stage?

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ljs123
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Re: 1878 8TF VAM?

Post by ljs123 » Tue Aug 24, 2021 12:31 am

Have you looked at this page?
You have to scroll down to the 8 TFs.
Look at your last two photos and the 8TFs.

http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... tion_guide
Last edited by ljs123 on Tue Aug 24, 2021 12:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

Woodsy
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Re: 1878 8TF VAM?

Post by Woodsy » Tue Aug 24, 2021 12:32 am

Here is some of the stuff I’m not seeing that steered me away from 14.3.

- Clean 8
- No extra metal at wing tip
- No lines in Liberty
- No mark in front of eye
- No polishing line at eagle leg
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messydesk
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Re: 1878 8TF VAM?

Post by messydesk » Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:10 am

Looks like Brian (vamsterdam) misinterpreted the initial pictures when he saw them. You initial assessment of VAM 14 was actually correct. For 1878 8TF, the hand-engraved feathers under the wings are the first things we look at, and magnification is critical for these. There is so much doubling and so many extra-curricular marks on the dies for 1878 8TF that many aren't mentioned in the descriptions at all. VAM 14 is in the "less common" category, and yours looks fairly nice.
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Woodsy
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Re: 1878 8TF VAM?

Post by Woodsy » Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:39 am

messydesk wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:10 am
Looks like Brian (vamsterdam) misinterpreted the initial pictures when he saw them. You initial assessment of VAM 14 was actually correct. For 1878 8TF, the hand-engraved feathers under the wings are the first things we look at, and magnification is critical for these. There is so much doubling and so many extra-curricular marks on the dies for 1878 8TF that many aren't mentioned in the descriptions at all. VAM 14 is in the "less common" category, and yours looks fairly nice.
Thank you!!

I just bought out a large collection from an old collector, and while Morgan’s aren’t generally my target he was an all or nothing seller. So I bought it and I’m sure I’ll offload the vast majority when I pick out what I want. Believe it or not I ended up with 13 8TF in the deal, all between MS62/MS64 all PCGS graded in older holders. This was the first one I picked up. Im hoping to see what has VAMs, what would warrant variety attribution by a TPG, what needs to go to CAC, and what would upgrade. My eyes are bleeding at this point in the process. Only about 150 Morgans to go. If anyone is bored and bear Alabama I have a project for you!!

Thanks again. As a first timer here this is a nice group and very knowledgeable. If I can help anyone with non-Morgan, non-copper I will gladly. Seated and bust stuff is my usual.

colwillys
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Re: 1878 8TF VAM?

Post by colwillys » Tue Aug 24, 2021 2:31 pm

Congrats on the BIG BUY ..
I just need 1 eight tail feather just to have 1 . I like Peace Dollars .

DHalladay
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Re: 1878 8TF VAM?

Post by DHalladay » Tue Aug 24, 2021 2:49 pm

Welcome to the mayhem Woodsy!
Your photographic tools and attention to detail mean you have a huge head start over most VAM beginners, so I predict you will get a handle on this fairly quickly. As you've already found, people here are super knowledgeable and very happy to help, so don't be shy about asking.
When in doubt... don't.

Woodsy
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Re: 1878 8TF VAM?

Post by Woodsy » Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:11 pm

One last question for the group. How do you address it when there are pick ups identified that aren’t on the coin in question? Obviously it doesn’t preclude it from being that VAM. Do you have if it has some but not all it’s still that VAM?

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messydesk
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Re: 1878 8TF VAM?

Post by messydesk » Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:29 pm

Woodsy wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:39 am
...Believe it or not I ended up with 13 8TF in the deal, all between MS62/MS64 all PCGS graded in older holders. This was the first one I picked up. Im hoping to see what has VAMs, what would warrant variety attribution by a TPG, what needs to go to CAC, and what would upgrade. My eyes are bleeding at this point in the process. Only about 150 Morgans to go. If anyone is bored and bear Alabama I have a project for you!!
If you have older PCGS holders, there is an alternative to sending them back for attribution. I'll send you a PM in this regard.
Woodsy wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:11 pm
One last question for the group. How do you address it when there are pick ups identified that aren’t on the coin in question? Obviously it doesn’t preclude it from being that VAM. Do you have if it has some but not all it’s still that VAM?
Short answer is that a coin has to match the specified text description and Leroy Van Allen's pictures. There are many additional pictures on the wiki that might not be correct, so if you match the specification but not the additional pictures, it's best to ask.
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