1887-S V2 to 2A transition point?

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keilg1
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1887-S V2 to 2A transition point?

Post by keilg1 » Sun Jun 27, 2021 12:53 pm

Is there a specific transition point between the non-damaged denticle Vam-2 to the damaged 2A version?

Mine appears to be 'ish' - I called it a Vam-2 but there is damage - but not a lot..

Other PUPs to distinguish the two? (I would have said "...to distinguish the two twos..." but that might have been a pun too far? ;) ).

Obv:
GR-1887S-V2A-PGCG64_date.jpg
GR-1887S-V2A-PGCG64_date.jpg (120.1 KiB) Viewed 1002 times
Rev:
GR-1887S-V2A-PGCG64_MM.jpg
GR-1887S-V2A-PGCG64_MM.jpg (119.62 KiB) Viewed 1002 times
Rev dents:
GR-1887S-V2A-PGCG64_rev_dents.jpg
GR-1887S-V2A-PGCG64_rev_dents.jpg (124.26 KiB) Viewed 1002 times
Thanks,

Gary

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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: 1887-S V2 to 2A transition point?

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Sun Jun 27, 2021 12:58 pm

You have a LDS as you surmise. There is a polishing job (both dies and remarried) and die wear involved. As you know, the EDS coins are much more dramatic than the LDS coins. They are not hard to find, so if you want an EDS, keep looking. I bought one not that long ago off of HA as I recall.

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Re: 1887-S V2 to 2A transition point?

Post by JASONKFLO » Sun Jun 27, 2021 12:59 pm

Great photos
Jason Floyd
I climb Mountains , Grow Bamboo and like Coins

keilg1
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Re: 1887-S V2 to 2A transition point?

Post by keilg1 » Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:35 pm

LateDateMorganGuy wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 12:58 pm
You have a LDS as you surmise. There is a polishing job (both dies and remarried) and die wear involved. As you know, the EDS coins are much more dramatic than the LDS coins. They are not hard to find, so if you want an EDS, keep looking. I bought one not that long ago off of HA as I recall.
Thanks.

Still a bit confused. I know the obv with denticle damage was used in the VAM-15 (same obv but swapping out the S/S rev), but I don't see how the die progression evolved.

I thought the progression was the original pairing creating the VAM-2 (S/S; no obv or rev damage) -> small damage obv and rev denticles (like mine... a tweener and still a 2 but a 2LDS) -> bigger damage = 2A -> reverse got swapped out forming the 15 -> which then had the reverse crack forming Crae's coin -> which prompted taking the dies out of use. Sounds plausible but this means mine and other tweener/transition coins would be more 2LDS or 2AEDS not an LDS of the 2A?

You're saying the damage (15 and 2A) came first which faded forming the 2?

Sorry for my confusion but I love a mystery to solve - I'm just not smart enough to figure it out.

Thanks for your insight and your patience!

Gary

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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: 1887-S V2 to 2A transition point?

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:45 pm

This is just from my observations only. If others have different observations, bring them on!

The die pair started in the VAM-2 pair, with no crapolla in the denticles, i.e. clean dies. The dies were then polished and remarried. From what I can tell, the crapolla in the denticles happened then. The crapolla started to weaken/fade from die wear. There may have been another die polishing episode after that, hard to tell.

But after the VAM-2/2A marriage, the obverse die went to the VAM-15 die marriage.

Hope that helps.

keilg1
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Re: 1887-S V2 to 2A transition point?

Post by keilg1 » Sun Jun 27, 2021 7:11 pm

LateDateMorganGuy wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:45 pm
This is just from my observations only. If others have different observations, bring them on!

The die pair started in the VAM-2 pair, with no crapolla in the denticles, i.e. clean dies. The dies were then polished and remarried. From what I can tell, the crapolla in the denticles happened then. The crapolla started to weaken/fade from die wear. There may have been another die polishing episode after that, hard to tell.

But after the VAM-2/2A marriage, the obverse die went to the VAM-15 die marriage.

Hope that helps.
Love it. Like some of the stories I've heard of my family: a get-together... crapolla occurs... an attempted patch up (or sweeping stuff under the rug...)... crapolla again further weakening those involved... split ups... remarriages... In the end, a bloody mess, but some interesting tales to tell and retell.

Will we ever know the truth? Not until we go onto Maury Povich's show and all fully confess what we've done, fighting it out to prove who was 'right,' right? 8-)

keilg1
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Re: 1887-S V2 to 2A transition point?

Post by keilg1 » Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:42 pm

@messydesk,

Can you shed some light on what defines the transition from V2 to V2A? I have two that are 'tweeners' - one shown here and another one in a similar boat: denticles not normal looking but not quite what is shown in the 2A pictures.

Thanks for your help!

Gary

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messydesk
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Re: 1887-S V2 to 2A transition point?

Post by messydesk » Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:42 pm

Based on Alan's comment saying that the denticular crapola happened after the die had been used on VAM 15 and remarried, any "tweener" would be a later die state as said crapola fades from die wear. I would call anything from the remarriage VAM 2A.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: 1887-S V2 to 2A transition point?

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:12 pm

Sorry if there is any confusion that I may have created. The progression is:

VAM-2: No denticle crapolla, fresh dies.
VAM-2A: Denticle crapolla occurs, wears down with die use.
VAM-15: Obverse die inherited from the VAM-2A, minor denticle crapolla.

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messydesk
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Re: 1887-S V2 to 2A transition point?

Post by messydesk » Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:23 am

LateDateMorganGuy wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:12 pm
Sorry if there is any confusion that I may have created. The progression is:

VAM-2: No denticle crapolla, fresh dies.
VAM-2A: Denticle crapolla occurs, wears down with die use.
VAM-15: Obverse die inherited from the VAM-2A, minor denticle crapolla.
Got it. Distinction between 2 and 2A stands and is not a gray area. Anything in the denticles is 2A
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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: 1887-S V2 to 2A transition point?

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:37 am

Yup, if your coin has denticle crapolla on both obv and rev, then it would be a 2A, regardless how strong/weak it may be. There is no die stage where the denticle crapolla was polished off to revert both dies to a 2.

keilg1
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Re: 1887-S V2 to 2A transition point?

Post by keilg1 » Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:17 am

LateDateMorganGuy wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:37 am
Yup, if your coin has denticle crapolla on both obv and rev, then it would be a 2A, regardless how strong/weak it may be. There is no die stage where the denticle crapolla was polished off to revert both dies to a 2.
Brilliant.

Love that understanding can come from deeply diving into the crapolla. Ah, if more of life were that easy!
Gary Redfeather, PhD, RPh

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