1924 Peace Dollar VAM-1D1 and 1B1

General discussion board about VAMs, but no buy/sell offers
Post Reply
Pareidoliac
Posts: 205
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:32 am

1924 Peace Dollar VAM-1D1 and 1B1

Post by Pareidoliac » Sat Sep 22, 2018 11:10 am

I have a 1924 Peace Dollar with clash lines at neck-jaw intersection extending down into the E of WE. On reverse, I can make out the E by tilting the coin in the light. My questions are twofold:

1. Is the clash line at neck-jaw intersection necessary for the E to be on the reverse? I ask because on another 1924 Peace Dollar there appears to be an E on reverse a bit higher and farther left but no clash line on obverse at neck-jaw intersection or anywhere in the lower left quadrant of the coin's obverse. Doesn't there need to be an opposite side clash for letter transfer to occur?

2. On the clashed 1924 Peace Dollar, there are lots of lines seen across the entire surface of the obverse and reverse that look like the coin was whizzed. The VAM-1D1 is an "Elite 30" Peace Dollar, but is it worth submitting for VAM identification to a grading service if the coin was whizzed? Would someone want a whizzed Elite 30 Peace VAM?

Ken

User avatar
LorenAlbert
Posts: 427
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 11:19 am
Contact:

Re: 1924 Peace Dollar VAM-1D1 and 1B1

Post by LorenAlbert » Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:44 pm

mmoj@ptd.net wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 11:10 am
Doesn't there need to be an opposite side clash for letter transfer to occur?
You may have noticed reports of shared dies. Attribution is of a die pair. Die identification is of a particular die. Die classification is of one or more dies (students) that satisfy the subheading description for the class of die. A particular die of a die pair may be retired for "end of life" and its mate may continue to mint, but with a new partner. The new die marriage may lead to a new base variety with a preexisting clash event that does not reflect on the spouse. In this example, a new variety can be born with a preexisting clash affecting one partner only; and not the spouse. Each partner can bring their own baggage to the marriage. Studies of clash rotation and alignment may help to sort this out. Loren

Pareidoliac
Posts: 205
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:32 am

Re: 1924 Peace Dollar VAM-1D1 and 1B1

Post by Pareidoliac » Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:30 pm

Thank you. That makes perfect sense.

Pareidoliac
Posts: 205
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:32 am

Re: 1924 Peace Dollar VAM-1D1 and 1B1

Post by Pareidoliac » Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:31 pm

For anyone following this, I mis-typed in my original inquiry. 1B1 should be 1BB.

crabscrape
Posts: 441
Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 10:38 pm
Location: Virginia

Re: 1924 Peace Dollar VAM-1D1 and 1B1

Post by crabscrape » Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:58 pm

David has the discovery on the Vam 1D. He can tell more about what is going on. However, I have my view points about both coins and marriages. I don't not want to get in a different of opinion over the coins and cause any trouble or perception of what is there that I see. I see something different.

User avatar
vampicker
Posts: 1302
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:48 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: 1924 Peace Dollar VAM-1D1 and 1B1

Post by vampicker » Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:58 am

I own the discovery piece for VAM 1BB. I've shown it to a fairly large number of VAM collectors. It's kinda funny watching the reactions. The Peace guys all see the E clash right away. The Morgan only guys can almost never spot it.
A clearly evident partial E clash is present - period.
often the crusher of hopes and dreams

crabscrape
Posts: 441
Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 10:38 pm
Location: Virginia

Re: 1924 Peace Dollar VAM-1D1 and 1B1

Post by crabscrape » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:59 pm

John,
You are correct in that anybody can see the clash E on the Vam 1BB. I don't disagree with that at all. I will send you mine. What I don't agree with is the 1D. It has a slight clash that is set left and and below where the E is more pronounce in the clash. Now we have a 1D2 with a new marriage that really makes me think. I know I am stupid sometimes!!! But I just don't see the E on the 1D to where it would be considered for a clash E! jmo!

vamsterdam
Posts: 991
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:48 am

Re: 1924 Peace Dollar VAM-1D1 and 1B1

Post by vamsterdam » Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:07 am

I was able to see the e on the v1d, v1bb, and the v8d but it wasn’t easy immediately. I had the benefit of having mark Kimpton and john Roberts with me while we looked at the 1bb and a 1d.
I forgot what the vam number is on the eds of the v8 where the e shows. Many people see an e where there is only a neck/jaw clash. Others can’t see the e clash because they are familiar with Morgan clashes but not peace clashes.

davidkclose
Posts: 241
Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:39 pm

Re: 1924 Peace Dollar VAM-1D1 and 1B1

Post by davidkclose » Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:45 pm

I have examined 2 specimens of VAM 1D, they have the same obverse die. The later die state of this obverse, and I think this reverse, is VAM 1W. Given that we know that the clashed E occurred at least twice (VAM 8B being the other), I have no problem believing that it happened thrice.
John, if you will bring your VAM 1BB to FUN, I will bring my DC of VAM 1D to demonstrate whether or not they share the same obverse die.

User avatar
vampicker
Posts: 1302
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:48 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: 1924 Peace Dollar VAM-1D1 and 1B1

Post by vampicker » Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:17 am

Just remind me when it gets closer to the show and I'd be glad to
often the crusher of hopes and dreams

Pareidoliac
Posts: 205
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:32 am

Re: 1924 Peace Dollar VAM-1D1 and 1B1

Post by Pareidoliac » Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:44 am

Gentlemen,

Here are the photos. Is that an E at tip of first ray at base of I and B? Wish I could provide better photography.

Ken
Attachments
1924 obv.jpg
1924 obv.jpg (207.26 KiB) Viewed 2958 times
1924 full rev 2.jpg
1924 full rev 2.jpg (185.69 KiB) Viewed 2958 times
1924 rev E.jpg
1924 rev E.jpg (108.33 KiB) Viewed 2958 times
1924 full rev.jpg
1924 full rev.jpg (216.07 KiB) Viewed 2958 times

Pareidoliac
Posts: 205
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:32 am

Re: 1924 Peace Dollar VAM-1D1 and 1B1

Post by Pareidoliac » Fri Sep 28, 2018 3:17 am

By contrast, here is another 1924 which places the (possible) E between the top two rays and a little lower than on the (possible) 1BB in the other photos. The diagonal bag mark through the second ray from the top is conveniently pointing to the base of what I believe might be the E. Might be difficult to see in these photos. By tilting in the light, I believe I am seeing an E. However, it is 11:00 PM.

This raises the question: does the letter always transfer to the same spot or is there movement within the same area of letter transfer? Same question for clashed Morgans...would the n near Liberty's neck, for example, always transfer to the same exact location by the neck or can there be movement/placement within the same general area?

I have another wanna-be 1D1 that I think has better E potential, but I submitted it to ANACS. We'll see.
Attachments
1924 VAM-1D1 close up.jpg
1924 VAM-1D1 close up.jpg (95.81 KiB) Viewed 2955 times
1924 VAM-1D1.jpg
1924 VAM-1D1.jpg (144.58 KiB) Viewed 2955 times

Pareidoliac
Posts: 205
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:32 am

Re: 1924 Peace Dollar VAM-1D1 and 1B1

Post by Pareidoliac » Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:11 am

OK, I re-read Attribution 101 (very well done) and based on the color coded photo in the clashing section it would seem that clashed letter transfers can move within a small area; however, if the letter shape is in the die I would think the letter image should remain in the exact spot on each such coin (unless the die shifts or moves as it punches and re-punches?). Not sure why I can’t seem to wrap my brain around this. I could use a field trip maybe to the Philly mint or a museum to see the old equipment if it survives.

I haven’t had time to study any other resource materials suggested to me so my apologies for these novice questions.

colwillys
Posts: 887
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:39 pm

Re: 1924 Peace Dollar VAM-1D1 and 1B1

Post by colwillys » Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:26 pm

all questions help use learn more .. I believe this is a rusted die .. LVA will make the call if their is letter transfer .
Nice coin , keep up the work with the Peace dollars .

vamsterdam
Posts: 991
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:48 am

Re: 1924 Peace Dollar VAM-1D1 and 1B1

Post by vamsterdam » Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:35 pm

The clashes E will always show the neck/jaw clash below it(on the reverse. The absence of th neck jaw clashmark pretty much eliminates any chance of an E clash.

User avatar
LateDateMorganGuy
Posts: 671
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:11 am

Re: 1924 Peace Dollar VAM-1D1 and 1B1

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:45 pm

Keep in mind that the clashed E on Morgan dollars is raised on the field of the coin. On Peace dollars, it will be incuse (below) to the field.

User avatar
messydesk
Site Admin
Posts: 2633
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 1:57 am

Re: 1924 Peace Dollar VAM-1D1 and 1B1

Post by messydesk » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:17 pm

Also, to get a clashed E on a Peace dollar requires a rather strong clash, which will show elsewhere on the coin as well.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

Post Reply