First buffed reverse?

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UncleGildy
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First buffed reverse?

Post by UncleGildy » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:41 am

I've been fishing the bay for a buffed reverse for a long time now and finally pulled one out tonight. She ain't very pretty (maybe AU with a chance of being cleaned), but I think she's an '83O VAM-1C1 and will be all mine :)
83Ov1C1_091119.jpg
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My Wow! VAM book caused the search to start over a year ago, before giving up for a while, and for a long time I thought this was the only Buffed Reverse. Just a pages over though, is an even more extreme buffed reverse (91O VAM-19).

And a VW search of "buffed reverse" revealed this page which shows a cool SSDC set of 26 varieties!

I added the Wow! references & links for the 83O's and 91O, but then noticed the '83O VAM-1C3 was missing. It's missing from the set on the SSDC too. Now, I know @andywoj00 has one awesome 1C3 example that he pulled from the bay a few months back, so there's at least one more out there. In fact his find is what gave me hope and started me searching again. (Still looking for the Broken Eagle, Andy)

From the Buffed Reverses VW page, it looks like more updates may be needed to the SSDC set. I don't know how to make those, but thought I'd mention it, in case others do. The buffed reverses are really cool, and some are probably easier to find than this 83O v1C1.

dave700x
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Re: First buffed reverse?

Post by dave700x » Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:08 am

Welcome to my addiction... I joined VAMworld-01 in 2012 and it just so happened there was a discussion about the '83-O 1C at that very time. It was a life (collecting) changing moment for me. I managed to find a raw LDS 1C2 shortly there-after and continued to search for this holy grail. Along the way I decided to collect any interesting '83-O since I was looking at them every day. 7 years later I have 12 VAM-1C's and sixty something 83-O's. :)

She's definitely a 1C. Congrats on a wonderful acquisition!!!! 8-)
1883-O nut

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UncleGildy
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Re: First buffed reverse?

Post by UncleGildy » Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:10 am

I guess I have a lot of catching up to do. What a coincidence - the buffed reverse list came up just over a week ago.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2379&p=21916&hilit=1883+O#p21916
Sorry if I repeated anything, beat a dead horse or missed the obvious (again).

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UncleGildy
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Re: First buffed reverse?

Post by UncleGildy » Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:16 am

dave700x wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:08 am
Welcome to my addiction... I joined VAMworld-01 in 2012 and it just so happened there was a discussion about the '83-O 1C at that very time. It was a life (collecting) changing moment for me. I managed to find a raw LDS 1C2 shortly there-after and continued to search for this holy grail. Along the way I decided to collect any interesting '83-O since I was looking at them every day. 7 years later I have 12 VAM-1C's and sixty something 83-O's. :)

She's definitely a 1C. Congrats on a wonderful acquisition!!!! 8-)
Thanks! That's really cool. Small world.
It's funny how one type of attribute stirs the interest of some so much more than others. Nice to know it wasn't just me. And now, I'll stop complaining about it taking so long now and set my sights on a 1C2 or 1C3.

morganman
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Re: First buffed reverse?

Post by morganman » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:30 am

I too have been watching/searching auction venues for 83 o 1c1, ic2, or 1c3 to no avail
I decided to start going into my inventory - coins not seen by me for decades
First one found was 1c2 raw original -est ms61/2- second was 1c1 in raw 63 beautiful then a couple 1c2 in AU
Next was a 1c3 in slider au58 - About jan this yr i ran into a ms 63 ish
Im pretty hooked on these buffed dandies and now looking for the various buffed/messed up reverses
:|

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andywoj00
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Re: First buffed reverse?

Post by andywoj00 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:28 am


dave700x
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Re: First buffed reverse?

Post by dave700x » Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:30 am

Nice examples Andy. Your 1C2 is on the cusp of what I consider LDS with the ripple in the field at the eagle's right wing tip. I'm still looking for that 1C3 holy grail....
1883-O nut

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vincar73
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Re: First buffed reverse?

Post by vincar73 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:54 pm

Congrats on your first buffed reverse.

Other than the area fully outlined and several distorted 'waves' in the field or large die break at top of eagle's wing, what other die markers could be used as die markers to differentiate 1C2 to 1C3??

Does the small patch of pitting below tail feathers could be considered a die marker for 1C3?? Can we find it also on 1C2’s??

Looking @andywoj00 high resolution pics it seems it isn't on 1C2 reverse pic.

Maybe i already asked this @dave700x but if i recall he didn't confirm me this.

dave700x
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Re: First buffed reverse?

Post by dave700x » Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:27 pm

I don't know when the pitting occurred below the tail feathers, Vince. I have a 1C2 that is a slightly later die state than Andy's example and I think it does not have the patch. I'm not a 100% certain however so I'll need to check this evening...

All I have available at the moment is the crop of the wing tip.
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andywoj00
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Re: First buffed reverse?

Post by andywoj00 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:40 pm

dave700x wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:30 am
Nice examples Andy. Your 1C2 is on the cusp of what I consider LDS with the ripple in the field at the eagle's right wing tip. I'm still looking for that 1C3 holy grail....
Thanks. Ditto on the 1C3. Very elusive......

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messydesk
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Re: First buffed reverse?

Post by messydesk » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:58 pm

While these are cool, keep in mind that the term "buffed dies" is not correct. These are failed dies, with the die collapsing or sinking during striking. The 83-O VAM 1C shows how the die deteriorates in this respect over time. Log books from the mint for 1881-O show a die being retired because it was too soft (quite possibly the VAM 16 reverse). That's what you're seeing here. The devices are more work-hardened as a result of the hubbing process. The fields, on the other hand, take the brunt of the punishment during striking, and start sinking, leaving a halo around the devices.
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dave700x
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Re: First buffed reverse?

Post by dave700x » Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:17 pm

messydesk wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:58 pm
While these are cool, keep in mind that the term "buffed dies" is not correct. These are failed dies, with the die collapsing or sinking during striking. The 83-O VAM 1C shows how the die deteriorates in this respect over time. Log books from the mint for 1881-O show a die being retired because it was too soft (quite possibly the VAM 16 reverse). That's what you're seeing here. The devices are more work-hardened as a result of the hubbing process. The fields, on the other hand, take the brunt of the punishment during striking, and start sinking, leaving a halo around the devices.
I totally agree with you JB. The only reason I refer to them as buffed dies or buffers is because of the language used in the listings and even the list of buffed dies itself. ;)

The progression of the 1C reverse die confirms that the reverse die was soft. Heck, even the clash events with two different obverse dies that sustained no damage is proof in itself….
1883-O nut

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messydesk
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Re: First buffed reverse?

Post by messydesk » Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:31 pm

The language isn't consistently used, and I'd prefer to have an accurate term established rather than have an incorrect, but popular one metastasize.
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dave700x
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Re: First buffed reverse?

Post by dave700x » Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:29 pm

messydesk wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:31 pm
The language isn't consistently used, and I'd prefer to have an accurate term established rather than have an incorrect, but popular one metastasize.
What term would you propose? I'm all for establishing a universally accepted term that accurately describes these...
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messydesk
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Re: First buffed reverse?

Post by messydesk » Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:42 pm

I've used "collapsed die" in the past. I'd want @vamsterdam and @vampicker to weigh in as well.
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vampicker
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Re: First buffed reverse?

Post by vampicker » Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:43 pm

The 'too soft' deal could also be called 'improper annealing' .

How about 'soft serve'?
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CascadeChris
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Re: First buffed reverse?

Post by CascadeChris » Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:26 pm

I think I might have started the whole slang term of "Buffer" maybe not though and that's all in my own head. I, too, dont really like the term "buffed die" but "Buffer" is a cool slang term. Still, it is a bit of a misnomer and I've tried to used "Sunken Die" or "Collapsed Die" but "Sunken" seems to also be more aligned with what one sees rather than "Collapsed"

So, personally, my vote goes to "Sunken Die" even though "Sunker" doesn't have the same ring to it as "Buffer" does lol.

Whatever route you guys want to take I'm cool with though and will abide. These are becoming more and more popular so I agree that this should get sorted out with proper nomenclature before it grows too big to correct..
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UncleGildy
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Re: First buffed reverse?

Post by UncleGildy » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:01 pm

Yikes, this turned into something I didn't see. But, for me it's a great education. I love the history of the hub and die during it's life. How the hubs and dies are both steel and one needs to be hard and the other soft to transfer the image. The fact that they soften at different rates in different areas of the die is fascinating.

So, how about the 91O VAM-1A2 and the terms used there? Only a month ago I was fascinated by the "Dome Die Sink" in the areas around the eye socket die break. I paid too much for a lower grade one because of the raised dome and crazy BERT transfer were just too cool.

Is the 91O 1A2 a little different phenomenon, or the same thing but it was helped along because of the break at the specific location.

fwiw - To me (a newbie) collapsed die or annealed die makes the most sense and seems to explain it well enough (accurate yet intuitive enough). I think the term anneal is usually associated with making more soft / less brittle. I understand the method of annealing can make it harder of softer, but with no other words, just "annealed" probably means softened to most folks.

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messydesk
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Re: First buffed reverse?

Post by messydesk » Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:50 am

Annealing is a normal part of the die making process. I wouldn't want to use that term.
Sunken does describe the appearance, but not exactly what happened (the die collapsed). Also sinking a die is also a term used for hubbing it, so that may add confusion.
What I don't know is if CONECA or other groups have a standard term for this phenomenon that should be carried over to Morgans.
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CascadeChris
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Re: First buffed reverse?

Post by CascadeChris » Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:39 am

messydesk wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:50 am
What I don't know is if CONECA or other groups have a standard term for this phenomenon that should be carried over to Morgans.
Hit up Mike Diamond maybe?
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