1879-S VAM page update.

General discussion board about VAMs, but no buy/sell offers

which of the two options do you like best.

1. Option #1.
4
80%
2. Option #2
1
20%
 
Total votes: 5

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messydesk
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Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by messydesk » Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:39 pm

TheYokel wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:30 pm
My apologies, i may have read into something that wasn't actually stated. I thought that was why you didn't want the rotated dies example put at the top of a page (because it would add to the links).
A rotated dies link isn't a great example for what belongs in the list of attribution guides or at the top of the date page. As there are typically at most one or two die pairs for any given date that have meaningful rotation, this information is more of a footnote than it is something that will help attribute a coin quickly. Put it on the individual VAM page in the comment section, where it will turn up in a text search of the wiki, but it doesn't belong at the top of the date page.
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Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by TheYokel » Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:45 pm

messydesk wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:39 pm
TheYokel wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:30 pm
My apologies, i may have read into something that wasn't actually stated. I thought that was why you didn't want the rotated dies example put at the top of a page (because it would add to the links).
A rotated dies link isn't a great example for what belongs in the list of attribution guides or at the top of the date page. As there are typically at most one or two die pairs for any given date that have meaningful rotation, this information is more of a footnote than it is something that will help attribute a coin quickly. Put it on the individual VAM page in the comment section, where it will turn up in a text search of the wiki, but it doesn't belong at the top of the date page.
People have to know it exists to search for it.

If the information is buried in some esoteric posting that only seasoned hunters are going to know about, how many possible discoveries or known coins will be passed over by new hunters that may have made a new discovery or found a rarely-seen rotation just because the information wasn't available. Or is that the point?...
"There is no E"...

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Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by messydesk » Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:03 pm

TheYokel wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:45 pm
People have to know it exists to search for it.

If the information is buried in some esoteric posting that only seasoned hunters are going to know about, how many possible discoveries or known coins will be passed over by new hunters that may have made a new discovery or found a rarely-seen rotation just because the information wasn't available. Or is that the point?...
We can't put every bit of information about what someone might see on a coin at the top of the date page, or it will be a mess. Rotation is an example of a rather esoteric feature. Mention it in passing in a footnote or commentary about the date (see 1896-O page for a commentary example, which I think should be lower on the page). At the top right of the wiki is a search box that can be used to look for anything someone stumbles across. Searching "1886-O rotated" will bring up the VAM 4 and VAM 11 pages in search results.
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Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by TheYokel » Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:07 pm

messydesk wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:03 pm
TheYokel wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:45 pm
People have to know it exists to search for it.

If the information is buried in some esoteric posting that only seasoned hunters are going to know about, how many possible discoveries or known coins will be passed over by new hunters that may have made a new discovery or found a rarely-seen rotation just because the information wasn't available. Or is that the point?...
We can't put every bit of information about what someone might see on a coin at the top of the date page, or it will be a mess. Rotation is an example of a rather esoteric feature. Mention it in passing in a footnote or commentary about the date (see 1896-O page for a commentary example, which I think should be lower on the page). At the top right of the wiki is a search box that can be used to look for anything someone stumbles across. Searching "1886-O rotated" will bring up the VAM 4 and VAM 11 pages in search results.
My point is that a new researcher won't know what a rotated die is to even type the words to search for. They may very well know something is "different" about the coin... But may not know the word "rotated" to search for. But if they look up the year/mm listing and it at least mentions rotated dies somewhere on the page (not buried in the listing, or *at least* not without the listing headline mentioning "seen with rotated dies")... How in the world will they ever find the information?

Not everyone knows the vernacular to search for..
"There is no E"...

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Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by ORGirl1! » Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:13 pm

TheYokel wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:07 pm
messydesk wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:03 pm
TheYokel wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:45 pm
People have to know it exists to search for it.

If the information is buried in some esoteric posting that only seasoned hunters are going to know about, how many possible discoveries or known coins will be passed over by new hunters that may have made a new discovery or found a rarely-seen rotation just because the information wasn't available. Or is that the point?...
We can't put every bit of information about what someone might see on a coin at the top of the date page, or it will be a mess. Rotation is an example of a rather esoteric feature. Mention it in passing in a footnote or commentary about the date (see 1896-O page for a commentary example, which I think should be lower on the page). At the top right of the wiki is a search box that can be used to look for anything someone stumbles across. Searching "1886-O rotated" will bring up the VAM 4 and VAM 11 pages in search results.
My point is that a new researcher won't know what a rotated die is to even type the words to search for. They may very well know something is "different" about the coin... But may not know the word "rotated" to search for. But if they look up the year/mm listing and it at least mentions rotated dies somewhere on the page (not buried in the listing, or *at least* not without the listing headline mentioning "seen with rotated dies")... How in the world will they ever find the information?

Not everyone knows the vernacular to search for..
You are correct, thank you The Yokel.

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Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by ORGirl1! » Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:24 pm

Another true point..
PacificWR - "In the IT world you have two main kinds of developers. 1. Application (content) 2. System (platform). The platform has to come first or the content does not matter. However, work on both can go on at the same time. Content and the platform it resides on can always be improved ..."

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Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by messydesk » Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:24 pm

TheYokel wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:07 pm
My point is that a new researcher won't know what a rotated die is to even type the words to search for. They may very well know something is "different" about the coin... But may not know the word "rotated" to search for. But if they look up the year/mm listing and it at least mentions rotated dies somewhere on the page (not buried in the listing, or *at least* not without the listing headline mentioning "seen with rotated dies")... How in the world will they ever find the information?

Not everyone knows the vernacular to search for..
Which is why we have a message board where people can ask for help, as well as lots of "101" style pages on the wiki.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

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Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by ORGirl1! » Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:27 pm

Question. Is VAMWORLD 2.0 a migrated, created with the host platform template or a combination?

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Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by messydesk » Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:32 pm

ORGirl1! wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:24 pm
Another true point..
PacificWR - "In the IT world you have two main kinds of developers. 1. Application (content) 2. System (platform). The platform has to come first or the content does not matter. However, work on both can go on at the same time. Content and the platform it resides on can always be improved ..."
The problem is that this has absolutely nothing to do with separating content from cosmetic changes. Both are content, making it difficult to separate them. The system is the Mediawiki installation installed on the AWS EC2 instance for the wiki, and the PHPBB installation for the message board. Some appearance-related changes can be made at the system level, such as the "skin" I set for the message board or wiki. I can also perform maintenance upgrades at a system level and not disturb the content. The wiki actually supports user-level CSS-based skins if you want your own custom appearance of the content.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

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Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by messydesk » Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:33 pm

ORGirl1! wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:27 pm
Question. Is VAMWORLD 2.0 a migrated, created with the host platform template or a combination?
I think I answered that in my previous message, but let me know if you would like more information.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

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Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by TheYokel » Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:37 pm

messydesk wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:24 pm
TheYokel wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:07 pm
My point is that a new researcher won't know what a rotated die is to even type the words to search for. They may very well know something is "different" about the coin... But may not know the word "rotated" to search for. But if they look up the year/mm listing and it at least mentions rotated dies somewhere on the page (not buried in the listing, or *at least* not without the listing headline mentioning "seen with rotated dies")... How in the world will they ever find the information?

Not everyone knows the vernacular to search for..
Which is why we have a message board where people can ask for help, as well as lots of "101" style pages on the wiki.
A very. Very. Small percentage of the people that look at the VAM listings ever join this board. And you are giving this generation's researchers WAAAY too much credit. This is the age of Google and Snopes. People want instant one-and-done answers. They aren't going to dig through a "101" to get interested. The instant gratification of locating their coin is going to interest them in learning about and reading the 101. That's sadly how it works a lot of times these days.

Younger people are seriously unlikely to make an account just to ask a question. The interest will fade before that and they will be on the the next hot topic they discover. You have to make them interested/gratified right from the start.

Going by the posts I see from new members in other groups... Newer collectors are much more likely to make an account to post "Look what I found!" instead of "What is this?"...

The nervousness and possible embarrassment of not knowing something alone stops a lot of more socially reserved people from asking questions. Some people are legitimately afraid of being wrong in public, and would rather not join the community than to post a coin they have questions about.

We should be catering not only to the people that want to participate socially, but also the more reclusive researchers/collectors that do this on their own without ever stepping into the public domain?

Again, i see it being about the coins. I don't want a possible discovery being lost to the annuls of time just because the information wasn't there for someone who actually had the interest, but couldn't find the info.
"There is no E"...

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Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by ORGirl1! » Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:44 pm

messydesk wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:32 pm
ORGirl1! wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:24 pm
Another true point..
PacificWR - "In the IT world you have two main kinds of developers. 1. Application (content) 2. System (platform). The platform has to come first or the content does not matter. However, work on both can go on at the same time. Content and the platform it resides on can always be improved ..."
The problem is that this has absolutely nothing to do with separating content from cosmetic changes. Both are content, making it difficult to separate them. The system is the Mediawiki installation installed on the AWS EC2 instance for the wiki, and the PHPBB installation for the message board. Some appearance-related changes can be made at the system level, such as the "skin" I set for the message board or wiki. I can also perform maintenance upgrades at a system level and not disturb the content. The wiki actually supports user-level CSS-based skins if you want your own custom appearance of the content.
Thank you for your reply.

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Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by ORGirl1! » Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:46 pm

messydesk wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:33 pm
ORGirl1! wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:27 pm
Question. Is VAMWORLD 2.0 a migrated, created with the host platform template or a combination?
I think I answered that in my previous message, but let me know if you would like more information.
I think you provided exactly enough information. "I" is all encompassing. Thank you.

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Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by ORGirl1! » Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:49 pm

TheYokel wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:37 pm
messydesk wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:24 pm
TheYokel wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:07 pm
My point is that a new researcher won't know what a rotated die is to even type the words to search for. They may very well know something is "different" about the coin... But may not know the word "rotated" to search for. But if they look up the year/mm listing and it at least mentions rotated dies somewhere on the page (not buried in the listing, or *at least* not without the listing headline mentioning "seen with rotated dies")... How in the world will they ever find the information?

Not everyone knows the vernacular to search for..
Which is why we have a message board where people can ask for help, as well as lots of "101" style pages on the wiki.
A very. Very. Small percentage of the people that look at the VAM listings ever join this board. And you are giving this generation's researchers WAAAY too much credit. This is the age of Google and Snopes. People want instant one-and-done answers. They aren't going to dig through a "101" to get interested. The instant gratification of locating their coin is going to interest them in learning about and reading the 101. That's sadly how it works a lot of times these days.

Younger people are seriously unlikely to make an account just to ask a question. The interest will fade before that and they will be on the the next hot topic they discover. You have to make them interested/gratified right from the start.

Going by the posts I see from new members in other groups... Newer collectors are much more likely to make an account to post "Look what I found!" instead of "What is this?"...

The nervousness and possible embarrassment of not knowing something alone stops a lot of more socially reserved people from asking questions. Some people are legitimately afraid of being wrong in public, and would rather not join the community than to post a coin they have questions about.

We should be catering not only to the people that want to participate socially, but also the more reclusive researchers/collectors that do this on their own without ever stepping into the public domain?

Again, i see it being about the coins. I don't want a possible discovery being lost to the annuls of time just because the information wasn't there for someone who actually had the interest, but couldn't find the info.
The Yokel you are informed and correct. Thank you.

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Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by PacificWR » Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:26 pm

TheYokel wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:37 pm
messydesk wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:24 pm
TheYokel wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:07 pm
My point is that a new researcher won't know what a rotated die is to even type the words to search for. They may very well know something is "different" about the coin... But may not know the word "rotated" to search for. But if they look up the year/mm listing and it at least mentions rotated dies somewhere on the page (not buried in the listing, or *at least* not without the listing headline mentioning "seen with rotated dies")... How in the world will they ever find the information?

Not everyone knows the vernacular to search for..
Which is why we have a message board where people can ask for help, as well as lots of "101" style pages on the wiki.
A very. Very. Small percentage of the people that look at the VAM listings ever join this board. And you are giving this generation's researchers WAAAY too much credit. This is the age of Google and Snopes. People want instant one-and-done answers. They aren't going to dig through a "101" to get interested. The instant gratification of locating their coin is going to interest them in learning about and reading the 101. That's sadly how it works a lot of times these days.

AMEN!

Younger people are seriously unlikely to make an account just to ask a question. The interest will fade before that and they will be on the the next hot topic they discover. You have to make them interested/gratified right from the start.

Going by the posts I see from new members in other groups... Newer collectors are much more likely to make an account to post "Look what I found!" instead of "What is this?"...

The nervousness and possible embarrassment of not knowing something alone stops a lot of more socially reserved people from asking questions. Some people are legitimately afraid of being wrong in public, and would rather not join the community than to post a coin they have questions about.

We should be catering not only to the people that want to participate socially, but also the more reclusive researchers/collectors that do this on their own without ever stepping into the public domain?

Again, i see it being about the coins. I don't want a possible discovery being lost to the annuls of time just because the information wasn't there for someone who actually had the interest, but couldn't find the info.
AMEN!

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Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by PacificWR » Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:29 pm

ORGirl1! wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:49 pm
TheYokel wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:37 pm
messydesk wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:24 pm

Which is why we have a message board where people can ask for help, as well as lots of "101" style pages on the wiki.
A very. Very. Small percentage of the people that look at the VAM listings ever join this board. And you are giving this generation's researchers WAAAY too much credit. This is the age of Google and Snopes. People want instant one-and-done answers. They aren't going to dig through a "101" to get interested. The instant gratification of locating their coin is going to interest them in learning about and reading the 101. That's sadly how it works a lot of times these days.

Younger people are seriously unlikely to make an account just to ask a question. The interest will fade before that and they will be on the the next hot topic they discover. You have to make them interested/gratified right from the start.

Going by the posts I see from new members in other groups... Newer collectors are much more likely to make an account to post "Look what I found!" instead of "What is this?"...

The nervousness and possible embarrassment of not knowing something alone stops a lot of more socially reserved people from asking questions. Some people are legitimately afraid of being wrong in public, and would rather not join the community than to post a coin they have questions about.

We should be catering not only to the people that want to participate socially, but also the more reclusive researchers/collectors that do this on their own without ever stepping into the public domain?

Again, i see it being about the coins. I don't want a possible discovery being lost to the annuls of time just because the information wasn't there for someone who actually had the interest, but couldn't find the info.
The Yokel you are informed and correct. Thank you.
Spot on.

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Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by PacificWR » Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:46 pm

Let's bring folks up to date. With the exception of the 1878, 1879-S, 1921's and 1922 all VAM pages have been updated with the section enhancement. This is a BIG change over VAMWorld 1.0. While some folks may laugh at it ...what it did was allow the person doing the editing to edit one section at a time. This greatly reduced the risk of something bad happing. Why am I bring this up.... because there has been a lot of talk about updating the VAM pages. Well folks, this update shown here has nothing to do with updating the VAM pages. It is building a new interface to the VAM Listing page of each date and each series. That is another reason why updating the VAM pages and updating the interface to the VAM listing's can go on at the same time.

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Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by TheYokel » Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:12 pm

PacificWR wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:46 pm
Let's bring folks up to date. With the exception of the 1878, 1879-S, 1921's and 1922 all VAM pages have been updated with the section enhancement. This is a BIG change over VAMWorld 1.0. While some folks may laugh at it ...what it did was allow the person doing the editing to edit one section at a time. This greatly reduced the risk of something bad happing. Why am I bring this up.... because there has been a lot of talk about updating the VAM pages. Well folks, this update shown here has nothing to do with updating the VAM pages. It is building a new interface to the VAM Listing page of each date and each series. That is another reason why updating the VAM pages and updating the interface to the VAM listing's can go on at the same time.
I'm just in the boat of wanting the information available on the pages.

How that information is presented is a discussion for people much more knowledgeable than myself. What helps me, and what I find interesting, will undoubtedly be different than what the next collector finds interesting. That's what drives this hobby (and the VAM market). If everyone were interested in the same things, we wouldn't have near the amount of interest in different, awesome VAMs. We'd all be focused on one thing. Diversity of interest is a great thing in this hobby, and will only facilitate new collectors also becoming interested.

But it's impossible to know what interests each individual. What if their main interest is something like rotated dies, and not seeing anything in the listing, they move on to a different site or give up altogether? What if it's a new rotated die and they'd have no idea to look for it without knowing they've been seen in that year?

I've found some of my coolest pieces of my collection without even seeing a date picture of the coin... Because another interesting PUP or other interesting markers were present. You honestly never know what mundane (to you) information or picture might be the golden ticket someone was looking for in their research.

Just like I really like the idea of the clickable "Top 100/Hot 50/Etc" lists for THAT year and MM being on the page. Yes, we have a great list linked in the sidebar... But if a new collector is at a table and picking coins... It's much more convenient to have the info for THAT coin on one page instead of clicking through 7 different links for Top 100... Hot 50... Hit List 40... Kimpton 12... WOW!... Super CD 25...

You see how many extra clicks that adds and having to constantly reload completely separate pages in a mobile environment. Some of the best picking is done in convention halls with mobile service that rivals some third world countries. I don't want to be loading 17 pages and scrolling for years/mints on 1G...

I'd much prefer it on the coins actual page...
"There is no E"...

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Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by messydesk » Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:36 pm

TheYokel wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:12 pm
Just like I really like the idea of the clickable "Top 100/Hot 50/Etc" lists for THAT year and MM being on the page. Yes, we have a great list linked in the sidebar... But if a new collector is at a table and picking coins... It's much more convenient to have the info for THAT coin on one page instead of clicking through 7 different links for Top 100... Hot 50... Hit List 40... Kimpton 12... WOW!... Super CD 25...
I tried this out on a test version of the 88-O page a while ago, making it more legible and obvious what coins were on a list. For many dates, there aren't as many "list" VAMs as for 88-O, so this made a good test. The only thing I don't like is that on a mobile device, you need to zoom in to read the table. This may be solvable with a mobile-aware theme that has a separate CSS for tables in a mobile setting. Needs looking into.

Be aware that if you want your own "home" page, you can edit your user page on the wiki to create your own custom portal to the rest of the wiki such that your use cases are more optimized. This is also a good way to test things out without disrupting other pages.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

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Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by TheYokel » Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:14 pm

messydesk wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:36 pm
TheYokel wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:12 pm
Just like I really like the idea of the clickable "Top 100/Hot 50/Etc" lists for THAT year and MM being on the page. Yes, we have a great list linked in the sidebar... But if a new collector is at a table and picking coins... It's much more convenient to have the info for THAT coin on one page instead of clicking through 7 different links for Top 100... Hot 50... Hit List 40... Kimpton 12... WOW!... Super CD 25...
I tried this out on a test version of the 88-O page a while ago, making it more legible and obvious what coins were on a list. For many dates, there aren't as many "list" VAMs as for 88-O, so this made a good test. The only thing I don't like is that on a mobile device, you need to zoom in to read the table. This may be solvable with a mobile-aware theme that has a separate CSS for tables in a mobile setting. Needs looking into.

Be aware that if you want your own "home" page, you can edit your user page on the wiki to create your own custom portal to the rest of the wiki such that your use cases are more optimized. This is also a good way to test things out without disrupting other pages.
I only browse desktop versions of sites on my phone so I'm honestly not intimately familiar with how this site navigates on mobile. I'm not able to give an opinion on that topic boss, my apologies (me not give an opinion... This has to be the 1st again... :lol:)

Edit: The 88 pages i was looking at look the same from what i can tell so far. Excellent to keep the experience the same as possible across all platforms. I like it.

Edit edit: holy mother of sweet baby Jesus the discussion board is awful on my phone, though. And there's no clickable link on the main page to return to VW2.0 that i can find, as is the case with the Morgan picture at the top of the desktop site.
"There is no E"...

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