1879-S VAM page update.

General discussion board about VAMs, but no buy/sell offers

which of the two options do you like best.

1. Option #1.
4
80%
2. Option #2
1
20%
 
Total votes: 5

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TheYokel
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Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by TheYokel » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:26 pm

LateDateMorganGuy wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:11 pm
Great question based on what you see on the 1897-P VAM-6 and VAM-9 pages on VW. However, by doing a die study, new info has emerged.

The 87-P series has several reverse dies with double reverse wreath leaves. This feature is also common on other date reverse dies close to 1897. This feature is believed to be in the hub.

So the VAM-6 is listed with doubled wreath leaves. But the VAM-9 is also listed with that feature. The VAM-9 is listed with a normal date. There is a die pair with the doubled wreath leaves that match exactly the Leroy description of VAM-9 that is a normal date. It is not the VAM-6 since it is listed as a near date, but VAM-6 also has the hang nail under the ear lobe, which the VAM-9 obverse die does not have.

Hence there is a die pair that matches the VAM-9 description exactly, that does not align with any other listed die pair or VAM listing. Hence, VAM-9 exists.

How the confusion between VAM-6 and VAM-9 happened is above my pay grade.

The VAM-9 reverse description is as follows:

Slightly doubled middle leaves in right wreath and middle leaf in second and third leaf cluster from top of left wreath towards rim. Designer’s initial M and top inside of wreath bow slightly doubled.


This kind of info ONLY comes from a date & mint mark die study, which I have been harping on for a long, long time.
Per the date position: having seen enough differences in what LVA considers "near" and "normal", I'm inclined to believe it was an incorrect description. Could have had pmd on the front leg of the 1, etc... Without a picture we'll never know...

Per the VAM-9 that is known to exist(?): has it been sent to LVA with a VAM-6 for comparison? This should be a fairly easy submission and I'm sure there's a couple people with access to a VAM-6 that would be happy to be a part of proving the 9's existence.

This seems like such a long-debated topic that the owner of the 9 would be wetting his leg in anticipation of proving LVA wrong...

Edit: or is this going based off of the known dies that were used and postulating that two dies with those characteristics must have been used at some point together and as such it must exist? As in the pairings say it must have happened even though we've never seen it?
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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:37 pm

Likely the VAM-9 DC is long gone, unless someone on this site has it.

But for the sake of discussion, it is the die pair on the 97-P page listed as a VNA and linked to a HA auction photo. Go figure.

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Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by crabscrape » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:39 pm

Alan, I know about the VNA issue in the Peace dollar series. Now you know how I feel. I haven't changed and don't plan on it. If the pay grade is above us then the ones getting payed need to fix it. People are not going to fix it with there chest poked out. You got to remember all this vamming was started for education! However, it has turned into a business.. The bad thing about it now is when business goes bad people have to take it on the chin.

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Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by blh74 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:44 pm

There are so many pages that need pictures and descriptions added first.

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Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by messydesk » Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:38 am

LateDateMorganGuy wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:11 pm
This kind of info ONLY comes from a date & mint mark die study, which I have been harping on for a long, long time.
And leads into my offer. As I said above, I would gladly facilitate getting a date/mint into shape content-wise. This includes fixing pictures, descriptions, comments, spelling, grammar, cross-references, etc. Different dates have different go-to points on them, so while I have ideas on how to approach doing this, I would like at least one person on this committee to be very familiar with that date and mint and preferably have all, or nearly all, of the coins. The goal will be to make people think that attributing the date in question is straightforward and unambiguous, and have confidence in all material presented. The optimal size of the team will depend on the scope of the work. If you want to be on a team, you don't have to be intimately familiar with the date being studied, but you'll learn from it, almost as if you had been part of the die study. We'll meet off-line over e-mail.

Takers?
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Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:45 am

Another suggestion for folks interested in this idea.

There is a Die Study Roll Call page on the HOME page. If you start a die study, please add your name to this list so folks can see who is doing what. It is okay for more than one person to be involved with a die study of the same date and mint mark series.

I started the 97-Ps not knowing someone on this site was already involved with that series. If I had known, I likely would have moved on to another series and not worked on the 97-Ps.

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Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by TheYokel » Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:21 am

LateDateMorganGuy wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:37 pm
Likely the VAM-9 DC is long gone, unless someone on this site has it.

But for the sake of discussion, it is the die pair on the 97-P page listed as a VNA and linked to a HA auction photo. Go figure.
Known VAM-6 on top...

HA picture of the "VAM-9" on the bottom (the annotated reference is what I assume you are calling the VAM-9?)...

Here are the dates and the ears...
..
..
Image
..
..
Image
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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:33 am

Well, we have managed to divert the discussion from page format to a particular VAM listing issue. Sorry Wayne. But maybe this is a good thing.

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Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by TheYokel » Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:34 am

LateDateMorganGuy wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:33 am
Well, we have managed to divert the discussion from page format to a particular VAM listing issue. Sorry Wayne. But maybe this is a good thing.
I like VAM'ing... My apologies boss :(
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Pareidoliac
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Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by Pareidoliac » Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:55 am

Well, I’m venturing into territory best traveled by experienced VAMmers, but maybe a newcomer’s input will be of some value. I really like the current VW site. There is very little I don’t like about it and maybe that just means I am too new to know better.

I am frustrated by those pages with no photos or scant descriptions that make attribution difficult (Peace dollars especially). Seems to me there is too much work to be done and not enough hands to do it. Therefore, the priority has to be fixing and finishing existing pages. Having said that I’m not sure why some aesthetic changes would be unwelcome, but again with limited manpower available the priority should be fixing and finishing.

Marketing the VW site is a great idea. Ads should emphasize the premium value of high interest VAMs because, let’s face it, few collectors collect coins without financial gain as a long term goal even if that is not the primary goal. Hunting and collecting VAMs is immensely more fun and rewarding than basic collecting of dates and mint marks, but even the purists see dollar signs as clearly as the investors. Hence, after fixing and finishing the top priority must be to create a centralized VAM price guide. What collector or dealer does not rely heavily on price guides and sheets as a way to get into the coin value ballpark? So while I see no harm in improving VW Page aesthetics, I would place that as number three in a list of priorities, and this is that list as I see it:

1. Fixing and finishing;
2. Establishing a VW VAM price guide;
3. Aesthetics.

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Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by PacificWR » Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:17 am

Ok folks, the hijackers of this thread have been caught and are being questioned by sheriff. Thanks Pareidoliac for your comments. Let’s take a look Item at items 1 and 3 from your post(I am not a dealer so item 2 is out of my wheelhouse). First of all item number 1 is nothing new. If we take a step back in time…. there was a team of 4 individuals who worked on part of item number 1. Their work consisted of locating, sizing and uploading LCFP for each VAM listing at that time. The team even went to Heritage Auctions to obtain permission to use their photos (which they did). At least 75 % of the LCFP’s currently loaded on the VAM pages is a direct result of their work. There was an enormous amount of effort put into this and it took a long time. However, their work was never completed. In short, what I am saying here is that item 1 is a huge task that will take a long time to complete. Since the migration of VAMWorld to version 2.0 I have made over 24,000 edits to pages and looked at virtually every active VAM page. This is not bragging but, it does leave me with a good understanding of what is missing on the VAM pages. Now let’s take a look at item number 3. A lot of the (basic) work is already done. There are just a few dates left to complete. Finally, there is no good reason why work on item 1 or 3 cannot go on at the same time.

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Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by TheYokel » Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:44 am

Pareidoliac wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:55 am
Well, I’m venturing into territory best traveled by experienced VAMmers, but maybe a newcomer’s input will be of some value. I really like the current VW site. There is very little I don’t like about it and maybe that just means I am too new to know better.

I am frustrated by those pages with no photos or scant descriptions that make attribution difficult (Peace dollars especially). Seems to me there is too much work to be done and not enough hands to do it. Therefore, the priority has to be fixing and finishing existing pages. Having said that I’m not sure why some aesthetic changes would be unwelcome, but again with limited manpower available the priority should be fixing and finishing.

Marketing the VW site is a great idea. Ads should emphasize the premium value of high interest VAMs because, let’s face it, few collectors collect coins without financial gain as a long term goal even if that is not the primary goal. Hunting and collecting VAMs is immensely more fun and rewarding than basic collecting of dates and mint marks, but even the purists see dollar signs as clearly as the investors. Hence, after fixing and finishing the top priority must be to create a centralized VAM price guide. What collector or dealer does not rely heavily on price guides and sheets as a way to get into the coin value ballpark? So while I see no harm in improving VW Page aesthetics, I would place that as number three in a list of priorities, and this is that list as I see it:

1. Fixing and finishing;
2. Establishing a VW VAM price guide;
3. Aesthetics.
Phantom listings are the devil. I fear some VAMs will be lost to here-say one day because of listings without a photo. Same feeling as listings with a single photo of a clash and no date picture. I'm actually working on killing off a Morgan VAM with just a single photo as I type this. Seeing the result of the submission is going to tell me a lot about how
to proceed with these types of listings in the future.

An old theological argument is that: the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

There's a very real possibility some mystery VAMs have been listed for so long that they will continue to exist in perpetuality simply because you can't prove they weren't seen at one time without a photo to compare to.

This is actually one reason I'm very happy lists exist with well-documented coins to hunt for, and why you see me trend toward collecting the established sets...

It's amazingly fun chasing a new discovery or a kill. It's also extremely subjective in some instances...
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Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by PacificWR » Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:44 pm

There is one very important part that is being lost in all of this. I started updating the VAM listings back on 1/24/19. All of the dates are done except a few. The 1879-s is one of the few dates that are not done. It makes no sense to lock down the 1879-S page when I am so close to finishing. JB knows all of this and has even sent me a PM about one of the fonts I am using.
The fixing of the VAM page listing while all true is just a head fake to change the direction and purpose of this post. The purpose of this post was to get the user community's input into how the 1879-S page should be updated. What I have been trying to do with each update is to highlight uniqueness (educational aspect for the new user)each date and mint has. For the 1879-S that would be the PAF/SAF feature. For a example of what I am talking about go to the 1904-P VAM page listing. How many folks know about the Flawed Logotype Punch Varieties. The update to each series in each date was a direct result of a post dated on 12/19/18 (link listed below:).

http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... dd33287701.

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Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by PacificWR » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:11 pm

PacificWR wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:44 pm
There is one very important part that is being lost in all of this. I started updating the VAM listings back on 1/24/19. All of the dates are done except a few. The 1879-s is one of the few dates that are not done. It makes no sense to lock down the 1879-S page when I am so close to finishing. JB knows all of this and has even sent me a PM about one of the fonts I am using.
The fixing of the VAM page listing while all true is just a head fake to change the direction and purpose of this post. The purpose of this post was to get the user community's input into how the 1879-S page should be updated. What I have been trying to do with each update is to highlight uniqueness (educational aspect for the new user)each date and mint has. For the 1879-S that would be the PAF/SAF feature. For a example of what I am talking about go to the 1904-P VAM page listing. How many folks know about the Flawed Logotype Punch Varieties. The update to each series in each date was a direct result of a post dated on 12/19/18 (link listed below:).

http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... dd33287701.
Here are examples of other updates that have been completed in the last two months.

1. 1889-O VAMS . The three rotated dies are were added as an educational aspect for the new user.

2. 1926-S VAMS. The First reported clashed 'E' on obverse for Peace dollar series was added
as an educational aspect for the new user.
Last edited by PacificWR on Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by TheYokel » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:39 pm

PacificWR wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:11 pm
PacificWR wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:44 pm
There is one very important part that is being lost in all of this. I started updating the VAM listings back on 1/24/19. All of the dates are done except a few. The 1879-s is one of the few dates that are not done. It makes no sense to lock down the 1879-S page when I am so close to finishing. JB knows all of this and has even sent me a PM about one of the fonts I am using.
The fixing of the VAM page listing while all true is just a head fake to change the direction and purpose of this post. The purpose of this post was to get the user community's input into how the 1879-S page should be updated. What I have been trying to do with each update is to highlight uniqueness (educational aspect for the new user)each date and mint has. For the 1879-S that would be the PAF/SAF feature. For a example of what I am talking about go to the 1904-P VAM page listing. How many folks know about the Flawed Logotype Punch Varieties. The update to each series in each date was a direct result of a post dated on 12/19/18 (link listed below:).

http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... dd33287701.
Here are examples of other updates that have been completed in the last two months.

1. 1889-O VAMS . The three rotated dies are were added as an educational aspect for the new user.

2. 1926-S VAMS. The First reported clashed 'E' on obverse for Peace dollar series was added
as an educational aspect for the new user.

Edit: did they links break? I can get to the Three Rotated Dies from the main listing.... But not your link

But wait... I have to start searching Peace$ for E's now, too?

Noooooooooooo.....
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Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by messydesk » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:48 pm

The rotated die stuff is too esoteric for a new collector to be seeing at the top of a page. The 26-S E-clashed Peace dollar is also. Keeping the date pages to simply a short list of attribution guides, a list of VAMs, and stats as I've laid out on the 78-CC page (and a few others) is sufficient. The place for citing things here or there that seem special to some is in a short commentary section about the date. If you look at the Whitman Morgan Dollar Red Book, each date has a couple sentences discussing varieties. Something like this would be OK to have on each date page, perhaps as a sidebar, but the nature of narrative text is that it could become opinion easily, which needs to be avoided.
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Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by Unc90o » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:59 pm

I agree with Messydesk. Since we already added "TOP 100", "Hot 50", etc., right after the official listing, why can we add the same for those that we know has some extra feature but not mentioned on the official listing? Here is an example for VAM-3.
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Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by messydesk » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:53 pm

One possibility is that we add a small icon to those few VAMs with rotated dies known. There aren't so many that it would become too cluttered. Maybe a variation on the circular arrows used for "refresh" icons.
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Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by PacificWR » Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:26 am

Unc90o wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:59 pm
I agree with Messydesk. Since we already added "TOP 100", "Hot 50", etc., right after the official listing, why can we add the same for those that we know has some extra feature but not mentioned on the official listing? Here is an example for VAM-3.
Unc90o ,

The table shown on the 1889-O VAM page is called a floating table. A floating table does not require any additional space on a page. So it is no big deal when it comes to space. That is part of the reason I used (floating table)it for this page. Why do you want to stuff the learning experience down in the VAM listing which will make it harder for a new user to locate?

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Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by PacificWR » Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:36 am

messydesk wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:48 pm
The rotated die stuff is too esoteric for a new collector to be seeing at the top of a page. The 26-S E-clashed Peace dollar is also. Keeping the date pages to simply a short list of attribution guides, a list of VAMs, and stats as I've laid out on the 78-CC page (and a few others) is sufficient. The place for citing things here or there that seem special to some is in a short commentary section about the date. If you look at the Whitman Morgan Dollar Red Book, each date has a couple sentences discussing varieties. Something like this would be OK to have on each date page, perhaps as a sidebar, but the nature of narrative text is that it could become opinion easily, which needs to be avoided.
Esoteric for a new collector to be seeing at the top of a page. that's funny. Enhancing a new user's experience was talked about extensively is my post dated 12/19/18 and was a direct request from several new user's that I talked to offline. Why the big problem now? This site is supposed to be all about sharing information. On the 1889-O VAM page a floating table was used. A floating table does not require any additional page space. That is part of the reason I used it. The other part is from the request from new user's.

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