1879-S VAM page update.

General discussion board about VAMs, but no buy/sell offers

which of the two options do you like best.

1. Option #1.
4
80%
2. Option #2
1
20%
 
Total votes: 5

User avatar
PacificWR
Posts: 1350
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 12:17 pm
Location: Kansas Flint Hills
Contact:

1879-S VAM page update.

Post by PacificWR » Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:22 am

The two links below show an update of the current 1879-S VAM page listing. The option in blue (#1) is based on the current format with enhancements to the font's and a educational aspect added (for the new user) that include mintage, die pairs, Die study info and photo's of PAF/SAF.

1. 1879-S Test Page

The other option is the drill down feature. The drill down feature was designed to reduce the almost endless scrolling on big VAM pages and contains the same educational aspect for the new user. Another feature of this option is for the first time we now have all the information of two major varieties side by side (PAF/SAF). All the user has to do is click on which ever listing they want to look at and they are there. I have tested both options on my cell and the drill down feature is faster.

2. WR 1879-S Test Page

User avatar
LateDateMorganGuy
Posts: 591
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:11 am

Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:35 am

I can't vote for either since I don't like either.

And yes Mitch, I will not explain why.

User avatar
raynat3
Posts: 202
Joined: Thu May 31, 2018 1:44 am

Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by raynat3 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:48 am

So I read the other thread and looked at these and previous page edits and prefer the old wiki format.

My question is what was broken in the old wiki format/layout(the way it looked) that needed fixing?

User avatar
messydesk
Site Admin
Posts: 2283
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 1:57 am

Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by messydesk » Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:55 am

LateDateMorganGuy wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:35 am
I can't vote for either since I don't like either.
This.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

User avatar
PacificWR
Posts: 1350
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 12:17 pm
Location: Kansas Flint Hills
Contact:

Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by PacificWR » Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:02 am

One of the main reasons to updating the 1879-S VAM page listing is match the font to the individual VAM pages. This just makes sense. No more stale out of date font. In addition, for folks doing the editing the whole page does not have to be edited. We now have section editing. In addition, by adding a educational aspect it will help enhance a new user's learning experience. This site needs to attract new and young user's or it will continue to die a slow death. The new format's are just a new set of tools in the tool belt to help do this. Finally, I will borrow a quote from one of a many of user's that get's it but, choose to remain slient " (from my millennial children).... what is up with people not wanting an easier way to do things? "
messydesk wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:55 am
LateDateMorganGuy wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:35 am
I can't vote for either since I don't like either.
This.
Real cute!

User avatar
PacificWR
Posts: 1350
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 12:17 pm
Location: Kansas Flint Hills
Contact:

Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by PacificWR » Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:19 pm

raynat3 wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:48 am
So I read the other thread and looked at these and previous page edits and prefer the old wiki format.

My question is what was broken in the old wiki format/layout(the way it looked) that needed fixing?
Raynat3, Why do you think Wiki quit supporting the old format (VAMWorld version 1.0)?

Answer: Because, the site and coding was out of date . Vendor's do this all the time. Just look at Microsoft. How many OS version's of windows (95, 98. XP, 7, and Windows 10 just to name a few) do we have. VAMWorld 2.0 has a ton of the old coding. Examples of this are the old VAM pages, VAM listing's and even the Morgan VAMs by Date page. Do you really think that younger folks and IT people don't notice this? Finally, if this site is to become the "GO to site" for VAM's the Admin of this site should be at the forefront of this effort to update the site. Not fighting against it and locking pages. Otherwise, this site will continue to die a slow death.

User avatar
messydesk
Site Admin
Posts: 2283
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 1:57 am

Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by messydesk » Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:49 pm

Content, and not format, is what is going to make the VAMWorld wiki succeed. The format is well-accepted by the general user base, and major changes should not be made on live pages.

There is plenty that should be fixed before worrying about font selection (which, along with other formatting preferences, can be personalized through personal style sheets). Incorrect photos, bad descriptions, spelling and grammatical errors, dead links, overuse of jargon in public pages, and wrong or outdated information will frustrate and turn off people long before the existing formatting, which was well conceived over time, does.

Form a team, pick a date, and start reviewing it rigorously for information that should be corrected such that doing so makes the average user's attribution of a coin more robust and take less time. I will gladly facilitate these teams' efforts. Furthermore, I guarantee that by the time you finish, you will be more confident not only in your own attributions, but that the average user will have confidence in theirs. John R, Alan, and I went through this with 1878-CC, and we are happy with the results.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

User avatar
Raybob15239
Posts: 552
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:52 pm
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by Raybob15239 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:06 pm

^ That, right there, is another reason I want a "like" button. 👍
I swear, someday I will learn how to grade Peace Dollars!

User avatar
PacificWR
Posts: 1350
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 12:17 pm
Location: Kansas Flint Hills
Contact:

Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by PacificWR » Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:00 pm

messydesk wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:49 pm
Content, and not format, is what is going to make the VAMWorld wiki succeed. The format is well-accepted by the general user base, and major changes should not be made on live pages.

There is plenty that should be fixed before worrying about font selection (which, along with other formatting preferences, can be personalized through personal style sheets). Incorrect photos, bad descriptions, spelling and grammatical errors, dead links, overuse of jargon in public pages, and wrong or outdated information will frustrate and turn off people long before the existing formatting, which was well conceived over time, does.

What a punt. I bet the format was will received at that time. What other choice was there? That is not the case now. There are more choices available. Take a hard look at option #2. It's all about content, format, Photos, tables, font, adding an educational aspect and more.. These are just some of the other tool's that will enhance the user experience. Bottom line is...there is more than one option available now to help enhance the new or established user experience.

Section editing of pages (which the 1879-S has) greatly reduces that risk of any potential problem. That's how new VAM pages are added and is one of the new features being installed.
Last edited by PacificWR on Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:06 pm, edited 7 times in total.

User avatar
PacificWR
Posts: 1350
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 12:17 pm
Location: Kansas Flint Hills
Contact:

Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by PacificWR » Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:03 pm

messydesk wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:49 pm
Form a team, pick a date, and start reviewing it rigorously for information that should be corrected such that doing so makes the average user's attribution of a coin more robust and take less time. I will gladly facilitate these teams' efforts. Furthermore, I guarantee that by the time you finish, you will be more confident not only in your own attributions, but that the average user will have confidence in theirs. John R, Alan, and I went through this with 1878-CC, and we are happy with the results.
John, This post and the one from 12/19/18 take the "Team" concept a step further. It opens it up to all VAMWorld members to contribute ...not just a select few.
http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... dd33287701.

User avatar
Raybob15239
Posts: 552
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:52 pm
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by Raybob15239 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:17 pm

I can see both sides of the argument. Both have merit. Can the listing pages be improved? Hell, everything can be improved, but then we are getting into very subjective territory. What one may see as an improvement may actually make things more complicated and difficult for someone else. I realize that this is long, and my opinion is just my opinion and it carries no weight, but I just wanted to offer my 2 cents.

I think what Wayne is trying to do is good; he wants to contribute and make VW better. That is something everyone should want to do. The problem is that not everyone's brain works the same way. As an experienced collector, Wayne sees the forest and the trees. He looks at this from the perspective of what makes the pages more functional based on his understanding of VAMs and how he goes about the business of attribution. Others, even with the same level of sophistication, may go about things differently and may not like or even understand Wayne's proposals. We have to be mindful of those who tend to get lost in the weeds, let alone not be able to see the forest for the trees.

The other part that makes this difficult is that VW 1.0 and 2.0 have been doing things in pretty much the same way for well over a decade. The current system works well for the experienced, sophisticated VAM collector as well as the novice. The old adage of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" comes to mind. It is human nature to resist change, especially if one is comfortable and used to things being a certain way. When looking at proposed changes, it should not just be what makes sense for just one group of users; it has to be something that works for everyone. I, for one, like having all of the listings on one page as it makes it easier to bounce between different listings.

Wayne has obviously put a great deal of work and thought into his proposed changes. The Wiki format allows all the users the ability to contribute and (hopefully) improve the information listed. The danger comes from changes being made by persons to make a page to their liking, based on how they think, without regard to how it would impact others. Please understand that I am in no way suggesting that Wayne has done this. To the contrary, he has been very much trying to involve all members in the discussion. The issue is that not all of our members are participating and the membership as a whole runs the entire spectrum of sophistication and some members may not understand what is being attempted on even the most basic level. I do like what has been suggested by John and Mitch above; take the committee approach. It certainly makes sense from a work perspective. What Wayne has done on his own at least appears to me to have been a great deal of work and effort. I would assume that it would be made easier by sharing the load with others. The other advantage of the committee approach is that it mitigates the risk of the person making the proposal not recognizing his own personal biases and incorporating features that, while they work great for him, makes everything more complicated for everyone else.

As for the comments about making VW the "go to site" for VAM collecting, it already is that. There are some other resources out there, but nothing even rivals VW. I don't see it as dying a slow death, either. I guess that you can say that about coin collecting in general, as it is seen by many as an old man's hobby. Sure, there are a number of screen names from when I was previously active on VW1.0 that are missing from VW2.0, but there are also a lot of new names. One of the best ways to encourage new collectors (especially if the goal is to ensure a future market for our coins when we or our families are ready to liquidate) is to provide an accessible library of information. Wayne has a point about some of the features needing updating and tweaking, but John's point about needing to make sure the content is complete and correct is more pressing at this point, at least in my opinion. We have a number of listings where there are no photos, not even plate photos. Surely, as a group, we have examples of most, if not all of the VAMs for which pictures are lacking. In my opinion, the first order of business should be to make sure that the content for each variety is complete and accurate. We can worry about format after that is done.

Sorry for the long post.
I swear, someday I will learn how to grade Peace Dollars!

User avatar
PacificWR
Posts: 1350
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 12:17 pm
Location: Kansas Flint Hills
Contact:

Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by PacificWR » Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:47 pm

Raybob15239 thanks for the feed-back. I welcome all opinions …good or bad. I agree with most of your post but, have a slightly different take on a couple of areas. VAMWorld is dying a slow death. This has been going on for a number of years. The membership numbers reinforce this. I hope this can be reversed and one of the ways to do this is to improve the product. Make it appealing to experience user’s and young user’s . If you take a close look at option 2 of this post the drill down names are the same ones used in the old page format. Another area I disagree on is the committee approach. With a committee approach it closes the door on idea’s for all other user’s except those on the committee. That is why I create post like this…..it opens the door to all user’s to express their idea’s or opinions on the model’s that I have listed.. The model’s that I list in a post like this one are not set in stone and can be enhanced. The last area where I have a different take on is the part on content for each variety being accurate and complete before the format is updated. There is no reason why they can’t be worked on at the same time. There are way too many VAM pages with little info or photo’s. This will take a long time to complete. Why hold up updating the format for this?

User avatar
TheYokel
Posts: 1552
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:23 am
Location: Death Valley (seriously)

Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by TheYokel » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:39 pm

Re: the forum dying...

As a new VAM-er, I don't see the variety community dying a slow death. I see new posts on the Facebook groups of people hunting varieties every day of people just learning. It just happens a lot of the newer people start on pocket change and Mint State Morgans can escalate in price extremely quickly. We can tend to easily forget how much of a rich person's sport this can be... And the economy hasn't been exactly forgiving to a large sub-sect of people (including casual collectors).

I honestly don't think it's the interest that is waning as much as the ability to point people to the site. People pick up a Top 100 pocket guide and away they go... But there's no direct way for them to find the forum outside of random googling (I was pointed here by a collector who already knew about it, even I really don't count as having "found" the forum)...

Believe me, when people see a price list and it shows a variety worth 500% of the standard coin... They have interest lol. Auction realized prices continue to hit highs. The interest is there...

How much would it cost us to put an ad on the first couple of pages of the next edition of the Top 100 guide? Or to get in touch with the Round Table merchants on FaceBook to set up a small VAM give-away of common coins? They could advertise the give-away on the ACC and collector groups (with tens of thousands of members). Make them join the forum to participate, and have a monthly forum post for new members that joined that month to enter the giveaway.
"There is no E"...

Top 100: 27 -- Hot 50: 6 -- Top 50: 4 -- Elite 30: 2 -- K12: 2

User avatar
LateDateMorganGuy
Posts: 591
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:11 am

Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:13 pm

While everyone is discussing page format, John made my point for me. I posted twice last night indicating incorrect info on the 87-P pages. Nobody really asked me about them, but go figure. But I did that for a reason. I wanted to show that while folks can spend a lot of time on this site trying to make "improvements" to the pages look, feel and font, there is a lot of work to be done to actually CORRECT misinformation on the pages. If so many folks have so much time on their hands, try making the info more accurate and forget how it is presented. Die studies folks, as I keep repeating myself on this subject.

Thanks JB.

User avatar
TheYokel
Posts: 1552
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:23 am
Location: Death Valley (seriously)

Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by TheYokel » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:16 pm

LateDateMorganGuy wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:13 pm
While everyone is discussing page format, John made my point for me. I posted twice last night indicating incorrect info on the 87-P pages. Nobody really asked me about them, but go figure. But I did that for a reason. I wanted to show that while folks can spend a lot of time on this site trying to make "improvements" to the pages look, feel and font, there is a lot of work to be done to actually CORRECT misinformation on the pages. If so many folks have so much time on their hands, try making the info more accurate and forget how it is presented. Die studies folks, as I keep repeating myself on this subject.

Thanks JB.
I saw the VAM 6 & 9 post and from what I read, it's up to LVA to delist it. Maybe we could add a notation to the listing?
"There is no E"...

Top 100: 27 -- Hot 50: 6 -- Top 50: 4 -- Elite 30: 2 -- K12: 2

User avatar
LateDateMorganGuy
Posts: 591
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:11 am

Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:21 pm

You make my point perfectly. The VAM-9 actually exists.

User avatar
TheYokel
Posts: 1552
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:23 am
Location: Death Valley (seriously)

Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by TheYokel » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:25 pm

LateDateMorganGuy wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:21 pm
You make my point perfectly. The VAM-9 actually exists.
Perhaps I'm not knowledgeable enough on the series to understand what you are meaning, my apologies boss...

From my understanding (and it seems it's since been removed?) every VAM 9 that had been shown wound up having the same J scratch as the VAM 6? Hence why it was combined?
"There is no E"...

Top 100: 27 -- Hot 50: 6 -- Top 50: 4 -- Elite 30: 2 -- K12: 2

crabscrape
Posts: 403
Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 10:38 pm
Location: Virginia

Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by crabscrape » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:35 pm

Yokel,

I agree with you! Leroy is the one who makes that decision. I myself know why other's choose to declare what they say. The ones who can add or take away at anytime will choose to do so. Its like being in a club waiting for someone to step down or getting Black Ball. I myself just want to do the right thing. If we are able to make a change to the listing lets do so as a whole. There are far to many changes that need to be made to the listings. Either we fix the problem or stop the new discovery. You cant have both? people are not on the same level knowledge of the coins and that problem with always present itself. How do you fix it????

User avatar
LateDateMorganGuy
Posts: 591
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:11 am

Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:11 pm

Great question based on what you see on the 1897-P VAM-6 and VAM-9 pages on VW. However, by doing a die study, new info has emerged.

The 97-P series has several reverse dies with double reverse wreath leaves. This feature is also common on other date reverse dies close to 1897. This feature is believed to be in the hub.

So the VAM-6 is listed with doubled wreath leaves. But the VAM-9 is also listed with that feature. The VAM-9 is listed with a normal date. There is a die pair with the doubled wreath leaves that match exactly the Leroy description of VAM-9 that is a normal date. It is not the VAM-6 since it is listed as a near date, but VAM-6 also has the hang nail under the ear lobe, which the VAM-9 obverse die does not have.

Hence there is a die pair that matches the VAM-9 description exactly, that does not align with any other listed die pair or VAM listing. Hence, VAM-9 exists.

How the confusion between VAM-6 and VAM-9 happened is above my pay grade.

The VAM-9 reverse description is as follows:

Slightly doubled middle leaves in right wreath and middle leaf in second and third leaf cluster from top of left wreath towards rim. Designer’s initial M and top inside of wreath bow slightly doubled.


This kind of info ONLY comes from a date & mint mark die study, which I have been harping on for a long, long time.
Last edited by LateDateMorganGuy on Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

tmanhg
Posts: 493
Joined: Tue May 29, 2018 9:42 pm

Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Post by tmanhg » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:21 pm

You should go back and correct your posts to reflect the 97 series and not he 87 series.

Post Reply