Proposed New VAM Page Listing Format. Vote in the poll below.

General discussion board about VAMs, but no buy/sell offers

Do you like the new proposed VAM Page Listing format?

Poll ended at Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:22 pm

1. Yes.
14
64%
2. Yes, but with some additional changes.
8
36%
3. No.
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 22

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TheYokel
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Re: Proposed New VAM Page Listing Format. Vote in the poll below.

Post by TheYokel » Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:56 am

I'm all for quick links.
"There is no E"...

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PacificWR
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Re: Proposed New VAM Page Listing Format. Vote in the poll below.

Post by PacificWR » Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:29 pm

The polls have closed, the holidays and the FUN show is over. Per user request I have made a few updates to the 1886-O VAM Page Listing . One of the main updates to the VAM listing page is the font now matches the individual VAM pages. This just makes sense. No more stale out of date font. In addition, for folks doing the editing the whole page does not have to be edited. We now have section editing. The new information on the 1886-O VAM Page Listing is easley searchable and will help enhance a new users learning experience.

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messydesk
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Re: Proposed New VAM Page Listing Format. Vote in the poll below.

Post by messydesk » Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:32 am

And now the VAM listings are a full screen of scrolling away from the top of the page. This was one of the things that people didn't want. I like the concept of having key VAMs of some sort shown somehow, but not where they are.
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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: Proposed New VAM Page Listing Format. Vote in the poll below.

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:23 am

I answered a post about a 1904-O V18 Die Pair #1 tonight. So before I posted, I went to the VAM-18 VAM page to see what Kurt had posted there to see if I could help. I got confused, and after a while figured out I had to go to a different page for each die pair via a link that was IMHO kinda hidden, I didn't like it.

Maybe this is different than the 86-O page you are using as a platform, and if so, my apologies. But keeping stuff on the first page works better for me in the case of the 1904-O V18 Die Pairs.

You will never get everyone to agree on this type of thing. The bigger the audience, the bigger the differences in opinions. I am not a fan of polls. As usual, I expect this post of mine will go ignored.

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PacificWR
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Re: Proposed New VAM Page Listing Format. Vote in the poll below.

Post by PacificWR » Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:04 am

messydesk wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:32 am
And now the VAM listings are a full screen of scrolling away from the top of the page. This was one of the things that people didn't want. I like the concept of having key VAMs of some sort shown somehow, but not where they are.
This can be easily fixed, but it would require a click of the mouse.

LateDateMorganGuy wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:23 am
Maybe this is different than the 86-O page you are using as a platform, and if so, my apologies. But keeping stuff on the first page works better for me in the case of the 1904-O V18 Die Pairs.

You will never get everyone to agree on this type of thing.
Alan is right here. I have heard it both ways. Some folks do not like to scroll and some folks do not like an extra click. To me it makes no difference, as long as the information is there. So it sounds like a decision needs to be made. Keep the "Key VAM" where they are (a little extra scrolling) or create a "Key VAM" page which would require an extra click.

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UncleGildy
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Re: Proposed New VAM Page Listing Format. Vote in the poll below.

Post by UncleGildy » Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:29 am

I may be missing something here, but I thought someone mentioned a box in the upper right corner for Year/mm Stats (JB I think?). It looked like a good solution and compromise to me at the time.

Maybe the Key VAMs can be in a box to the side or below the Stats? If not, maybe a simple bullet list of Key VAMs would consume less vertical space than a table. This one's tricky, as the table/list would be pretty long for some years.
LayoutClip01.jpg
LayoutClip01.jpg (43.04 KiB) Viewed 1605 times
Finally, one more thought from the mediawiki-ignorant: could the longer Key VAMs lists be a collapsible table/list? The first few lines could always be present, but the rest could be rolled up like hide in the TOC or a pull-down menu option on some web pages.

Hope I'm not retreading on ideas proven impractical or undesired long ago.

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PacificWR
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Re: Proposed New VAM Page Listing Format. Vote in the poll below.

Post by PacificWR » Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:46 am

There is a third option. The "Key VAMs" box can be moved around. I just did an update to the 1886-O VAM Page Listing showing this option.

Pareidoliac
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Re: Proposed New VAM Page Listing Format. Vote in the poll below.

Post by Pareidoliac » Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:18 am

I like the key VAMs box. I would see value also in a quick reference box with the R-6, R-7 VAMs. I agree with a previous comment about avoiding abbreviations wherever possible. Thanks.

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messydesk
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Re: Proposed New VAM Page Listing Format. Vote in the poll below.

Post by messydesk » Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:46 am

UncleGildy wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:29 am
I may be missing something here, but I thought someone mentioned a box in the upper right corner for Year/mm Stats (JB I think?). It looked like a good solution and compromise to me at the time.
I have a template defined for the "vital stats" already. You can see it on the 78-CC page. If you look at the source code of the 78-CC page, it's at the top, enclosed in {{ }}. You can copy and paste it to other pages and it will show up correctly on those as well. Keeping it on the right hand side doesn't waste vertical space.

I'm trying to think of a good way to present the concept of the "key VAMs." Perhaps another table on the right side of "List VAMs" below the vital stats. I can look into how to code the template for this, as well. The concept of these info boxes on the right side is standard practice for Wikipedia and other wikis, and I will be introducing it here for this kind of thing.
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PacificWR
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Re: Proposed New VAM Page Listing Format. Vote in the poll below.

Post by PacificWR » Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:43 pm

mmoj@ptd.net wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:18 am
I like the key VAMs box. I would see value also in a quick reference box with the R-6, R-7 VAMs. I agree with a previous comment about avoiding abbreviations wherever possible. Thanks.
Something like the "Key VAM" box?

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PacificWR
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Re: Proposed New VAM Page Listing Format. Vote in the poll below.

Post by PacificWR » Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:45 pm

messydesk wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:46 am

I'm trying to think of a good way to present the concept of the "key VAMs." Perhaps another table on the right side of "List VAMs" below the vital stats. I can look into how to code the template for this, as well. The concept of these info boxes on the right side is standard practice for Wikipedia and other wikis, and I will be introducing it here for this kind of thing.
John, That is what the "Key VAMs" box is.

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messydesk
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Re: Proposed New VAM Page Listing Format. Vote in the poll below.

Post by messydesk » Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:00 pm

The term "key" has different connotations here. Usually, it refers to the rarest, most expensive coin for a set. That's not necessarily the case with the "list" VAMs, such as 91-CC VAM 3, 87 VAM 12, and others, which is why I hesitate using the term "key" here.
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PacificWR
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Re: Proposed New VAM Page Listing Format. Vote in the poll below.

Post by PacificWR » Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:28 pm

messydesk wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:00 pm
The term "key" has different connotations here. Usually, it refers to the rarest, most expensive coin for a set. That's not necessarily the case with the "list" VAMs, such as 91-CC VAM 3, 87 VAM 12, and others, which is why I hesitate using the term "key" here.
The word "Key" could be changed to "Major VAMs" and a column added to include R value.

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messydesk
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Re: Proposed New VAM Page Listing Format. Vote in the poll below.

Post by messydesk » Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:46 pm

Any use of the R-value beyond Leroy's initial guess in the VAM specification will be removed. Too often, too many people put too much stock in that number. It does not usually reflect rarity accurately, and it has been abused in the past as an indicator of value.
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UncleGildy
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Re: Proposed New VAM Page Listing Format. Vote in the poll below.

Post by UncleGildy » Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:42 pm

I noticed that any of these "lists" a VAM may appear on is already in the description / title for each below. In fact, it's more complete because the table shown only includes the first "list" it may appear on. (Notice VAM-1A is a Wow! VAM as well as TOP 100.)

So maybe this table of "Listed VAMs" is redundant to some degree. The "Listed VAMs" list certainly could be long for some years!

I think the "Key" VAMs list of most rare and/or valuable would naturally be a very short list for all years. It could be included at the end of the Stats box or maybe as a (very short) section at the beginning of the main "Official VAM Listings".

Finally, the could the term "Listed VAMs" could be confused with the "Official VAM Listings", which is ...another list after all. Isn't the TOP-100 list or WOW! list or Elite-30 list really a Registry List? or Registry Set? or Official Set? If so, then I'd suggest using that term instead of Key or List.

edit: Just noticed the "Major VAMs" comment. To me (a newbie), that sounds more like "Key", as in very valuable or historically significant (which may be the intent). It doesn't seem to imply an official Set or Registry List. fwiw, imho, fyi 8-)

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messydesk
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Re: Proposed New VAM Page Listing Format. Vote in the poll below.

Post by messydesk » Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:29 pm

UncleGildy wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:42 pm
I noticed that any of these "lists" a VAM may appear on is already in the description / title for each below. In fact, it's more complete because the table shown only includes the first "list" it may appear on. (Notice VAM-1A is a Wow! VAM as well as TOP 100.)

So maybe this table of "Listed VAMs" is redundant to some degree. The "Listed VAMs" list certainly could be long for some years!

I think the "Key" VAMs list of most rare and/or valuable would naturally be a very short list for all years. It could be included at the end of the Stats box or maybe as a (very short) section at the beginning of the main "Official VAM Listings".

Finally, the could the term "Listed VAMs" could be confused with the "Official VAM Listings", which is ...another list after all. Isn't the TOP-100 list or WOW! list or Elite-30 list really a Registry List? or Registry Set? or Official Set? If so, then I'd suggest using that term instead of Key or List.

edit: Just noticed the "Major VAMs" comment. To me (a newbie), that sounds more like "Key", as in very valuable or historically significant (which may be the intent). It doesn't seem to imply an official Set or Registry List. fwiw, imho, fyi 8-)
The more I read this and think about it, the less I like the idea of having a list of key/major/list VAMs on a page with the official listing. It contains redundant information (the "lists" are clearly on separate pages), and will lead to confusion when trying to communicate or discern what it means to be on this extra list, and possibly controversy over what is and what is not called out as special somehow. All coins on a list (Top 100, Hot 50, ...) are so noted inline with their entry in the official listing section, although for sake of consistency, there shouldn't be a WOW icon in addition to the link.

One thing I just played with is putting anchors in the table on the Top 100 page in the table so that when someone clicks on the "Top 100" link in the VAM listing for a specific page, it jumps directly to that date in the table on the Top 100 page rather than the top of the page. I've only done this for 1888-O so far. Minor edit to the table to place the anchor, and to the link to jump to it.
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CascadeChris
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Re: Proposed New VAM Page Listing Format. Vote in the poll below.

Post by CascadeChris » Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:38 pm

JB, a *general* "list icon," might help imo. When I first started, and still today to some extent when going though a bulk lot I bought for flipping etc, i sometimes only check the coin against the "list" VAMs when going down the date/mm list to try to quickly discern a possible premium coin when I have a hundred to go through.. an Icon at left side indicating that this VAM is on a list would help tremendously. It also could allow us to kill the in-line notation of the specific list(s) the VAM is on as with a general icon indicating it's a "list" coin of some sort the specific list(s) can be seen when you click on the listing instead of being included in the title. Just a thought.
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UncleGildy
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Re: Proposed New VAM Page Listing Format. Vote in the poll below.

Post by UncleGildy » Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:00 pm

I do the same thing Chris referred to - scan the list for Top/WOW!/Hot/Elite... text in the listings. Personally, the extra list seems redundant and would only help on the few occasions when there a huge list of VAMs and only a few are in special Sets. Maybe some of the Peace dollars would fit this?

The icon's a neat idea but would need a legend, but maybe a short word in bold/italic like HOT50 or TOP100 or WOW! would work (with the link to the location in the special Set you mentioned). Or maybe the icon would just be that text (which could be what Chris was implying).

And your idea of a standout VAM (or two) from valuable/historically significant perspective sparks strong interest to me anyway. Knowing Scarface or v23A etc. is in the year with a link to it would be a neat feature.

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messydesk
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Re: Proposed New VAM Page Listing Format. Vote in the poll below.

Post by messydesk » Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:21 pm

CascadeChris wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:38 pm
JB, a *general* "list icon," might help imo. When I first started, and still today to some extent when going though a bulk lot I bought for flipping etc, i sometimes only check the coin against the "list" VAMs when going down the date/mm list to try to quickly discern a possible premium coin when I have a hundred to go through.. an Icon at left side indicating that this VAM is on a list would help tremendously. It also could allow us to kill the in-line notation of the specific list(s) the VAM is on as with a general icon indicating it's a "list" coin of some sort the specific list(s) can be seen when you click on the listing instead of being included in the title. Just a thought.
How about this approach: test 88-O page? The parenthetic text is removed from the listings, improving legibility, and a list name is displayed to the right as a link in a more tabular format making it easy to spot. Easy to see, preserves the link functionality, doesn't require displaying or explaining additional icons.
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PacificWR
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Re: Proposed New VAM Page Listing Format. Vote in the poll below.

Post by PacificWR » Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:27 pm

The Top 100, Hot 50 and Hit List 40 list were created years ago and are rarely updated. Since then, some really outstanding VAMs have been discovered and are currently being ignored (sorry Rob but, even the WOW list left some off). That is why the 1886-O VAM-19A (there are many more examples in other series) was added. The Key VAMs box was created to correct this and inform new user’s and seasoned vammer’s . Every series will be different. The box option displays all the information without requiring an additional click or reprogramming of current individual VAM list (less work). The information is all up front and easy to see (geared to the new user). If all the list were updated on a regularly basis then this would be a moot point.

I changed the title on the "Key VAMs" box to "Top Collectable VAMs".

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