1883-P VAM-20+ LDS Doubled date, stars, motto, LITY in LIBERTY. etc.

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Mike7E
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1883-P VAM-20+ LDS Doubled date, stars, motto, LITY in LIBERTY. etc.

Post by Mike7E » Fri Sep 29, 2023 1:35 pm

1883-P VAM-20+ LDS Doubled date, stars, motto, LITY in LIBERTY. Die cracks Phrygian Cap. Reverse- doubled motto, N--LLAR, some leaves. Overpolished left wreath.

I went through every listing on the main page twice and still can’t find this one. Any help is appreciated. I also reviewed all the summaries of pictures for each attribute like Hair D and while a few were close no exact match could be found. There are ‘gaps’ in the pictures but not sure if broken links or just spread out when viewing. They look helpful if there could be a match.
a 1883-P 1 A948 - 20230923_093823.jpg
a 1883-P 1 A948 - 20230923_093823.jpg (193.53 KiB) Viewed 260 times
All digits of the date are doubled. The 1 is slightly doubled under top crossbar, left side of vertical shaft, left and below lower crossbar. Surface doubling on right side near vertical shaft.
b 1883-P 1st 8 A949 - 20230923_093835.jpg
b 1883-P 1st 8 A949 - 20230923_093835.jpg (191.8 KiB) Viewed 260 times
First 8 doubled left and right outside and top inside of upper loop, left outside of lower loop where fine die crack meets it.
c 1883-P 2nd 8 A950 - 20230923_093843.jpg
c 1883-P 2nd 8 A950 - 20230923_093843.jpg (187.8 KiB) Viewed 260 times
Second 8 doubled lower left and right outside of upper loop and mid left and right outside of lower loop.
d 1883-P 3 B035 - 20230923_110035.jpg
d 1883-P 3 B035 - 20230923_110035.jpg (213.1 KiB) Viewed 260 times
3 doubled inside and outside of both loops. It does not have the notch at the bottom inside that many others have but there is so much doubling it looks like it was repunched with a different size punch or the punch was used to a different depth.
e 1883-P Neck bust line A949 - 20230923_214418.jpg
e 1883-P Neck bust line A949 - 20230923_214418.jpg (197.25 KiB) Viewed 260 times
Die crack from the denticles to the first left star to the bust then through lower section of vertical shaft of 1 and down to the base of the 8.
Die is clashed at the jaw neck juncture but while there is metal flow below no letter transfer is seen.
More posts follow.
Last edited by Mike7E on Tue Oct 03, 2023 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Mike7E
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Re: Help with 1883-P Doubled date, stars, motto, LITY in LIBERTY. etc.

Post by Mike7E » Fri Sep 29, 2023 1:38 pm

f 1883-P 1st right star A957 - 20230924_102120.jpg
f 1883-P 1st right star A957 - 20230924_102120.jpg (200.54 KiB) Viewed 259 times
g 1883-P 4th left star A957 - 20230923_093920.jpg
g 1883-P 4th left star A957 - 20230923_093920.jpg (184.17 KiB) Viewed 259 times
All obverse stars are doubled. First right star tripled at bottom.
h 1883-P Ear A950 - 20230923_214547.jpg
h 1883-P Ear A950 - 20230923_214547.jpg (165.73 KiB) Viewed 259 times
Ear has minor doubling bottom at very bottom. Nodules at the top inside, on lobe and in hair. Probably from rusty die.
I 1883-P LIBERTY B048 - 20230923_110607.jpg
I 1883-P LIBERTY B048 - 20230923_110607.jpg (183.41 KiB) Viewed 259 times
j 1883-P LIB A971 - 20230925_173242.jpg
j 1883-P LIB A971 - 20230925_173242.jpg (186.02 KiB) Viewed 259 times
LI----TY doubled LIBERTY has doubling in LITY, polishing lines at top of IB. Die crack goes under L into the hair below. Since there are missing chips at base of L and in hair this is die break.

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Mike7E
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Re: Help with 1883-P Doubled date, stars, motto, LITY in LIBERTY. etc.

Post by Mike7E » Fri Sep 29, 2023 1:44 pm

k 1883-P die crack in cap B047 - 20230923_110437.jpg
k 1883-P die crack in cap B047 - 20230923_110437.jpg (170.7 KiB) Viewed 259 times
l 1883-P Cap again A948 - 20230923_214203.jpg
l 1883-P Cap again A948 - 20230923_214203.jpg (189.25 KiB) Viewed 259 times
Two pictures of the Phrygian Cap Fold show how different focal lengths can affect the lighting and the look of die cracks.
m 1883-P R A965 - 20230923_094017.jpg
m 1883-P R A965 - 20230923_094017.jpg (178.77 KiB) Viewed 259 times
o 1883-P P A964 - 20230923_093952.jpg
o 1883-P P A964 - 20230923_093952.jpg (191.63 KiB) Viewed 259 times
Minor doubling of the motto including the stops.
o 1883-P Hair D A978 - 20230923_094140.jpg
o 1883-P Hair D A978 - 20230923_094140.jpg (172.69 KiB) Viewed 259 times
Hair D A few thin lines

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Mike7E
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Re: Help with 1883-P Doubled date, stars, motto, LITY in LIBERTY. etc.

Post by Mike7E » Fri Sep 29, 2023 1:47 pm

p 1883-P Cap back B045 - 20230923_110339.jpg
p 1883-P Cap back B045 - 20230923_110339.jpg (195.29 KiB) Viewed 258 times
Die deterioration just above the Cap V.
Reverse:
q
q 1883-P Bow B010 - 20230923_094655.jpg
q 1883-P Bow B010 - 20230923_094655.jpg (203.6 KiB) Viewed 258 times
Bow - Heavy doubling at bottom of upper loop, minor doubling at top and right side.
r 1883-S F B023 - 20230923_094914.jpg
r 1883-S F B023 - 20230923_094914.jpg (204.46 KiB) Viewed 258 times
Minor doubling STATES OF with light die cracks at beginning and end. Light die crack from rim through left wing then through AMERICA
s 1883-P left wreath B015 - 20230923_094744.jpg
s 1883-P left wreath B015 - 20230923_094744.jpg (201.3 KiB) Viewed 258 times
t 1883-P left wreath B016 - 20230923_094754.jpg
t 1883-P left wreath B016 - 20230923_094754.jpg (206.59 KiB) Viewed 258 times
Overpolished left wreath. At least one leaf doubled in first four right clusters.

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Mike7E
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Re: Help with 1883-P Doubled date, stars, motto, LITY in LIBERTY. etc.

Post by Mike7E » Fri Sep 29, 2023 1:49 pm

u 1883-P A in DOLLAR A966 - 20230925_172419.jpg
u 1883-P A in DOLLAR A966 - 20230925_172419.jpg (206.45 KiB) Viewed 258 times
Minor doubling N LLAR.
v 1883-P we B001 - 20230923_094540.jpg
v 1883-P we B001 - 20230923_094540.jpg (193.19 KiB) Viewed 258 times
Doubled motto, polishing lines in w
w 1883-P Wing gap B003 - 20230923_094551.jpg
w 1883-P Wing gap B003 - 20230923_094551.jpg (188.76 KiB) Viewed 258 times
Wing gap has minor criss-cross lines in several places
x 1883-P die calsh wing A998 - 20230923_094530.jpg
x 1883-P die calsh wing A998 - 20230923_094530.jpg (203.86 KiB) Viewed 258 times
Die clash at Eagle’s right wing is angled to right of n which indicates bottom of n would be away from Liberty’s neck if visible but only vague swirl marks are there.

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Mike7E
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Re: Help with 1883-P Doubled date, stars, motto, LITY in LIBERTY. etc.

Post by Mike7E » Fri Sep 29, 2023 1:50 pm

1883-P Obv IMG_2422.jpg
1883-P Obv IMG_2422.jpg (161.09 KiB) Viewed 258 times
1883-P Rev IMG_2423.jpg
1883-P Rev IMG_2423.jpg (165.2 KiB) Viewed 258 times
FCPs yellow color from lighting

weth
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Re: Help with 1883-P Doubled date, stars, motto, LITY in LIBERTY. etc.

Post by weth » Fri Sep 29, 2023 5:08 pm

VAM 20 LDS

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Mike7E
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Re: 1883-P VAM-20+ LDS Doubled date, stars, motto, LITY in LIBERTY. etc.

Post by Mike7E » Tue Oct 03, 2023 12:20 am

1883-P VAM-20+ LDS
Many thanks @weth I see the attributes that match on your VAM-20 FCPs. My LDS version has less pronounced die polishing lines in several spots, with some lines missing, so I thought them to be different.
The reverse shows progressive die wear and the major features are still there, however, the obverse die shows changes that are not just from die wear and should qualify it for a VAM-20A designation.
@messydesk when do we consider that a die has been altered (not from just wear) enough to create a new VAM sub-number? My coin’s date shows some die degradation but the digits are so different they have to have been repunched. This doubled date no longer matches the VAM-20 description so I would propose it gets the 20A number. Comments.

Arghhhh 20

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messydesk
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Re: 1883-P VAM-20+ LDS Doubled date, stars, motto, LITY in LIBERTY. etc.

Post by messydesk » Tue Oct 03, 2023 1:51 am

The mint wouldn't take a die out of service to repunch the date on it. The die was already hardened for use.

Splitting a listing into multiple listings requires coins representing all potential listings to be submitted for examination. There also needs to be a clear difference between them such that attributions aren't being made more difficult by the creation of gray areas.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

weth
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Re: 1883-P VAM-20+ LDS Doubled date, stars, motto, LITY in LIBERTY. etc.

Post by weth » Tue Oct 03, 2023 3:34 am

Many of the 83P die pairs clashed and had somewhat significant breaks; I spent some time presenting LVA with progression examples of various dies to try and show how they changed over time. Very few of them seemed to merit differentiation to him. I still think there should be a VAM 17C...

Before you assert a VAM 20A it would be helpful for you to examine an actual VAM 20 EDS specimen. I don't see any evidence of date alteration on any of my late die state VAM 20 examples compared to the original die, nor any clash letter transfer or significant break that would typically merit this new designation.

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