Lack of posting topics and overall interest

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messydesk
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Re: Lack of posting topics and overall interest

Post by messydesk » Mon Oct 02, 2023 7:55 pm

Eschaton wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2023 2:59 pm
Many great points on this thread, love what Roger is saying. But I'm gonna go ahead and address the elephant in the room.

The deeply embedded denigration of profit motivation is all but destroyed VAMs. Is sad but true. I can remember years ago when I was very young and came on VAMworld (2005? 2006?) it was a constant battle. Since I sold VAMs and was young, I was the bad guy to some. I literally got kicked off VW1 while all the older purists that were flaming me did not, and some are still here posting even today. When talking to some of the biggest names in the hobby that were still posting at that time and watched everything happen, they weren't even sure why I got kicked off.
I would argue that as much harm was done by the unreasonable expectation that a new collector (someone new to coins, not just VAMs) could get rich from VAMs.
I'm back now, but I don't do much with VAMs. It kind of ruined it for me. I moved on, became the numismatist for one of the largest coin shop chains in the country running the dollar desk, and then went on to Heritage, and now I'm a dealer. VAMs are a distant memory. I have a pile of discoveries that I never even sent in. At times is it seemed like an old boys club.
Given your career experiences, I'm sure you'll agree that there are no shortages of old boys clubs in coins.
But the unspoken reality is a lot of people don't want more people getting into VAMs. They don't want more competition while trying to cherry pick.
Perhaps people relying exclusively on cherrypicking to satisfy their experience, but if you look at the fact that Heritage now has VAM sales, which was unheard of 10 years ago, there is a significant number of collectors that are ready to pay up for better varieties. Yeah, as the hobby matured, prices fell on coins found to be more common than previously known, while they've gone up on others found to be more rare.
So now, if you go on social media, Penny roll hunting and variety collecting in general variety is HUGE and has about 1000 times as much interest as VAM collecting. And it's pretty much all young people. Because there's a profit motivation that isn't shamed. And honestly, it's worse than that, I've never seen anyone ever talking about VAMs.
I've seen it. Consider the cost of buying 5000 pennies and looking for varieties. $50 for the coins, a cheap digital microscope, and you're off posting pictures of their "errors and varieties" that have been corroded, run over, shot, spooned, cut, glued, screwed, tattooed, you name it. After a week of looking, they take their 5000 pennies back to the bank (4999 if they're lucky). Not a single one of these people have bothered to learn anything about the minting process that might help inform their searches. You tell them to take a step back from the microscope and learn something and they think you're from Mars. The people making the most money here are the microscope sellers. This is nothing new, of course. Those that became rich during the various gold rushes were mostly the ones selling supplies to the prospectors.

They're not going to be able to do the same with VAMs, because they can't just go get 5000 Morgan dollars to look through, take back the ones that they don't want, and leave with a fresh bag of 5000 without outlaying a lot of money they don't have.

It's also not true that people aren't talking about VAMs on social media. There are plenty of VAM dabblers and VAM curious people out there. I've approved plenty of new account requests here, one of which is currently being competently helped by a couple other newer members.
We were consistently attacked and pushed away the younger generation whose profit motivations were constantly questioned, and as a result the VAM market is tanking. Because the younger collectors just don't care about them. Because number one, we've chased the next generation away, and number two, we've made the hobby overly technical to the point where the most obvious features often aren't even mentioned in the description.
As you said, the next generation is looking through circulation rolls -- something you can't do so easily with silver dollars, so why should they care about VAMs? Or bust half varieties? Or large cent varieties? Or anything made before 1965, for that matter? Some of the roll searchers will mature into something more, while most will be selling their microscopes on eBay in a few years. As for complexity and being overly technical, the VAM catalog by itself is big and technical. It's 10 times the size of the bust half Overton catalog. How to manage that from the perspective of a collector new to VAMs has long been an issue. The concept of the Top 100 book didn't exist for any specialty when it came out in 1996 and lowered the barrier to entry dramatically. Other lists being created were a testament to its success. Other series have adopted that as well. Given the chance, I'll always tell beginners to start with something more focused and see where it takes them. It's hard to control which end of the pool someone jumps into, though.
And I'll bet a dollar that nothing will change. Because many don't want it to. I think I correctly assessed it about 15 years ago when I said that VW had become like cheers. It's a digital bar where a bunch of regulars hang out and shoot the breeze. Us four, no more. And therefore, that's what we're gonna get.
You've just described every online forum. Well, not the NVIDIA developers forum. There are no regulars you can count on there, nobody shoots the breeze, and the support people aren't very responsive.
We've made our bed, now we must lie in it. And tbh there's actually quite a bit of drama on here. And as a result a lot of the luminaries that once posted here now do not. And I don't blame them. After the reception my last post received, I've all but stopped posting again. Play stupid games win stupid prizes. Be careful what you build. Be careful what you wish for. 👍
Most active online venues have drama, so that really doesn't worry me much. There are no rules against it, and I'm not about to start banning people for being drama queens. The best cure for that is getting to a show and going out to dinner with a bunch of fellow collectors. Just don't go to Scarpino's in Pittsburgh.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

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fogie
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Re: Lack of posting topics and overall interest

Post by fogie » Mon Oct 02, 2023 9:03 pm

Touche!
Have a great day!

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vampicker
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Re: Lack of posting topics and overall interest

Post by vampicker » Mon Oct 02, 2023 9:32 pm

"It's not going to work out" -Scarpino's

All I know about our(VAMs)present standing in the market is I'm as busy as I've ever been and many of my submitters are fairly new names. Numismatics in general is in better shape now than before the pandemic.
often the crusher of hopes and dreams

morganman
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Re: Lack of posting topics and overall interest

Post by morganman » Mon Oct 02, 2023 10:16 pm

:popcorn: Eschaton; You said it all quite well-thank you
I think SSDC & VW have real uphill battles to
simply survive the lack of interest etc

VW pages are way to complicated descriptions
Loss of simplicity has ruined a great resource IMHO
organizations rely on new younger people of which
are not becomming players due to to much complex
descriptions within vam pages etc
Change direction or die is my motto !!
:|

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Re: Lack of posting topics and overall interest

Post by morganman » Tue Oct 03, 2023 2:27 am

:popcorn: With all this discussion our beloved Morgans
both Attributed & Not Attrib are doing quite well
overall in market place as are coins in general.
Auctions continue to surprise many as prices
received are strong with some topping expectations
times ???? New material still brings premiums

Surprising values received as silver is low priced
and gold slipping to 7 mo lows. A testiment to
investor's looking to diversify with hard assets vs
paper investments/fiat etc. 90% & 40% silver bags
in good demand & harder to find daily.
:|

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PacificWR
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Re: Lack of posting topics and overall interest

Post by PacificWR » Tue Oct 03, 2023 3:35 am

Eschaton wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2023 2:59 pm
And I'll bet a dollar that nothing will change. Because many don't want it to. I think I correctly assessed it about 15 years ago when I said that VW had become like cheers. It's a digital bar where a bunch of regulars hang out and shoot the breeze. Us four, no more. And therefore, that's what we're gonna get.
While your main point is spot on, additional things have changed. Most Discoveries and revisions are rarely mentioned, they are now covered in a cloud of darkness.

Mediocrates007
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Re: Lack of posting topics and overall interest

Post by Mediocrates007 » Tue Oct 03, 2023 4:30 am

Perhaps I’m in the minority, but I just enjoy reading and following along. I try not to buy attributed coins and just coins that I like — I attribute them after I get them home. On the forum, I do ask the occasional question or post a coin I picked up, but if they get no response I’m okay with that.

As for the hobby dying away, I don’t see that from my perspective. I consider myself an old collector at around 3 decades and just recently became interested in VAMs. Although VAMs I find interesting are not necessarily on a list, that doesn’t mean I like them any less.

Here’s a date I enjoyed “discovering” as I looked for the VAM.
Attachments
DLT_1034.jpeg
DLT_1034.jpeg (289.24 KiB) Viewed 426 times
“The first was struck at 3:17, and at 3:35 the steam was turned on and. the dollars began merrily clanking into the box at the rate of 80 a minute.”

lured_in_again
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Re: Lack of posting topics and overall interest

Post by lured_in_again » Fri Oct 06, 2023 8:19 pm

Judging from the local (Olathe, Ks) coin show I attended today, there is a lot of interest in coins, silver, and gold. The place had a line to get in the door and parking was overflowing to nearby streets. Since it is near K.C. I joked that Taylor Swift must be making an appearance. But I didn't see her or Travis Kelce while I was there. Dropped off a handful of Morgans to be graded w/ANACS. Couple of rainbow toners, 4 or 5 rotated reverses, couple of 99 micro Os, an 1889 CC, and my latest cud find from 1891 o (will be only the 3rd VAM 9B registered on SSDC) The place was hopping and money was changing hands, maybe the outlook isn't so dim?

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Re: Lack of posting topics and overall interest

Post by lured_in_again » Fri Oct 06, 2023 8:20 pm

jae_9b.vs15b.jpg
jae_9b.vs15b.jpg (82.23 KiB) Viewed 382 times

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messydesk
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Re: Lack of posting topics and overall interest

Post by messydesk » Fri Oct 06, 2023 9:50 pm

lured_in_again wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2023 8:20 pm
jae_9b.vs15b.jpg
Very nice cud! A line to get into a local show paints a better big picture than anecdotal doom and gloom stories.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

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fogie
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Re: Lack of posting topics and overall interest

Post by fogie » Sat Oct 07, 2023 2:02 am

It is not the coins or the market that are dead - just an individuals enthusiasm.
Have a great day!

morganman
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Re: Lack of posting topics and overall interest

Post by morganman » Tue Oct 10, 2023 4:40 am

:popcorn: Fogie is spot on about ones enthusiam in collecting
vams or any other coins etc. As one gets older/retired/
more retarded, it becomes much tougher to stay up
with changes/updates and everything.

To add to the issue lack of outside interest and faltering
prices really hurt enthusiam. Heres to hoping younger
collectors can take up the slack from older members
and keep coining alive & well.
:|

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Re: Lack of posting topics and overall interest

Post by Windycity » Tue Oct 10, 2023 1:57 pm

I have enjoyed reading this thread. While it often seems the VAMWorld forum traffic is down, compared to other sites specializing in Ikes (Ikegroup.info) and Franklin Halves (Franklin Lovers -can't even open that site now), VAMWorld is the "facebook" of specialized collecting!! Average posting on Ikegroup.info is about one thread per month!!

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messydesk
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Re: Lack of posting topics and overall interest

Post by messydesk » Tue Oct 10, 2023 2:31 pm

Windycity wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2023 1:57 pm
I have enjoyed reading this thread. While it often seems the VAMWorld forum traffic is down, compared to other sites specializing in Ikes (Ikegroup.info) and Franklin Halves (Franklin Lovers -can't even open that site now), VAMWorld is the "facebook" of specialized collecting!! Average posting on Ikegroup.info is about one thread per month!!
VAMWorld is actually busier than the NGC forum.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

morganman
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Re: Lack of posting topics and overall interest

Post by morganman » Tue Oct 10, 2023 5:15 pm

:popcorn: Never imagined this post would receive so much
decusions/answers. Equally happy to hear that our
VW receives more activity than the NGC forum.
NGC is totally about making money from price lists etc,
but my experience with them is counter productive/terrible
from customer service and more. I wont spend a dime with
this bad outfit.

So the big trick now at TPG is to Not open a package
received until some time later, to be able to state a received
date much later than actually received. Dirty trick IMHO
Not sure if Anacs is doing this but i hear both PCGS/NGC
are playing this game, yet another ploy to screw the
poor submitter, who deserves much better.
:|

chgolaw1
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Re: Lack of posting topics and overall interest

Post by chgolaw1 » Tue Oct 10, 2023 6:01 pm

Yes. It is what it is! This is the way of the new world order. Anything I send is always registered mail return receipt requested. Very sad!!!

iwillbenice
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Re: Lack of posting topics and overall interest

Post by iwillbenice » Wed Oct 11, 2023 10:22 pm

Ready to retire and will selloff and keep low. :popcorn:

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