1898 Vam 10 or 12?

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MarkyB
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1898 Vam 10 or 12?

Post by MarkyB » Mon Sep 18, 2023 7:39 pm

I picked this up thinking I was getting a 10 but the lines around the cotton leaves match 12. Those lines, as near as I can tell, are the only difference between the listings. Then I got to thinking they are the same coin. The links in VAM 12 don't work so apologies if this was already addressed. I'd appreciate any feedback as to the difference between the two or that they're indeed duplicates. As always, a pic:
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UNCLE BINGO
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Re: 1898 Vam 10 or 12?

Post by UNCLE BINGO » Mon Sep 18, 2023 8:51 pm

MarkyB wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2023 7:39 pm
I picked this up thinking I was getting a 10 but the lines around the cotton leaves match 12. Those lines, as near as I can tell, are the only difference between the listings. Then I got to thinking they are the same coin. The links in VAM 12 don't work so apologies if this was already addressed. I'd appreciate any feedback as to the difference between the two or that they're indeed duplicates. As always, a pic:
Little too deep end of the pool without a plate photo for V-10 . Is below the the cotton leaf an exact match of the v-12 polish lines ,like finger prints ? Not sure if anything is in the big book , or what the broken links said either , but good luck in your quest sir!
" May your clashes be EDS , your breaks be LDS , and your wife not have PMS over your collecting habits! " ;)

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ljs123
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Re: 1898 Vam 10 or 12?

Post by ljs123 » Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:03 pm

I'm not sure what VAM you have, but the additional tile photos on the 1898 VAM-10 and VAM-12 pages are of the Exact same coin.
That makes it a little harder to figure out.

MarkyB
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Re: 1898 Vam 10 or 12?

Post by MarkyB » Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:26 pm

[/quote]
Little too deep end of the pool without a plate photo for V-10 . Is below the the cotton leaf an exact match of the v-12 polish lines ,like finger prints ? Not sure if anything is in the big book , or what the broken links said either , but good luck in your quest sir!
[/quote]

It is the same as 12 but are the lines enough to warrant a separate VAM? I wouldn't think so. Date is near and 2nd 8 is doubled. PUP areas for both match. Unless my critical reading skills have left me, I see 10 and 12 as the same coin.
Edit: forgot to incude a picture. Tadpole above the S:
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UNCLE BINGO
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Re: 1898 Vam 10 or 12?

Post by UNCLE BINGO » Mon Sep 18, 2023 11:18 pm

K so the v-10 does have the second 8
plated in the big book ... I don't have permission to post them, and not sure it will help or not . You will need someone else to weigh in here... You could be right , on the other hand it is possible v-10 has no polish lines ... deep end of the pool like I said . There looks like there was a lot of years between the two discoveries ,,, so????

Beautiful pictures BTW!
" May your clashes be EDS , your breaks be LDS , and your wife not have PMS over your collecting habits! " ;)

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ljs123
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Re: 1898 Vam 10 or 12?

Post by ljs123 » Tue Sep 19, 2023 12:13 am

Are you asking if the VAM-10 and VAM-12 is a duplicate listing?
It is hard to tell from the VW pages.
One single coin should not be used as an example of two separate listed VAMs.
That is the problem we have with the VAM-10 and VAM-12 pages. One single coin is being used as the example photos for both VAM-10 and VAM-12.
This leads to confusion.
Are the photos really of a VAM-10, VAM-12, or belong somewhere else?
At this point, we cannot reliably use those photos to help attribute any coin in hand.

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UNCLE BINGO
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Re: 1898 Vam 10 or 12?

Post by UNCLE BINGO » Tue Sep 19, 2023 12:43 am

The first little bit of additional photos on the v-12 page appear to be from the discovery coin on that v-12 page , photos by K Slack .. the rest of the additional photos look to me to be from a heritage auction{those that appear on both pages }. And I am not complaining but that stuff drives me nuts. :lol:
" May your clashes be EDS , your breaks be LDS , and your wife not have PMS over your collecting habits! " ;)

MarkyB
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Re: 1898 Vam 10 or 12?

Post by MarkyB » Tue Sep 19, 2023 12:57 am

Ahhh there's a big book huh? I knew not everything was posted here but not a whole nutha tome. I guess I'll forever be begging for scraps. Maybe someday it will be on shelves next to the Cherry Pickers guide. Thanks for the morsel UB. Another pic:
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UNCLE BINGO
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Re: 1898 Vam 10 or 12?

Post by UNCLE BINGO » Tue Sep 19, 2023 1:59 am

Man I'm pulling for ya , I even pulled my own 98-P out just to see , but alas it in a normal date by 1/4 of a denticle.... We could assume a lot here . Like maybe the v-10 listing is just very generic , and The v-12 was just a better coin with more interesting things to find ..Heck I don't know .It takes a lot to change a listing now days , as it should be ... LVA did things years apart , without the INTERNET , and the fancy cameras we have now . I am amazed by what has come before ,,,, You very well could be on to something , but that is not up to me . I am thinking by the time you get done with this date , you will be the die study guy for the 1898 , and that is something to be proud of .....Wished I could be of more help here .
" May your clashes be EDS , your breaks be LDS , and your wife not have PMS over your collecting habits! " ;)

MarkyB
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Re: 1898 Vam 10 or 12?

Post by MarkyB » Tue Sep 19, 2023 2:31 am

It's all good. Just hoping someone with a VAM 10 would chime in and confirm or deny. I always check my inventory if/when these things pop up. With so few VAMs for the date, I'd be surprised this slipped by the guru's so it's probably on me. Otherwise, it's going in my records as a VAM 12.

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andywoj00
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Re: 1898 Vam 10 or 12?

Post by andywoj00 » Tue Sep 19, 2023 4:48 am

UNCLE BINGO wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2023 11:18 pm
K so the v-10 does have the second 8
plated in the big book ... I don't have permission to post them, and not sure it will help or not . You will need someone else to weigh in here... You could be right , on the other hand it is possible v-10 has no polish lines ... deep end of the pool like I said . There looks like there was a lot of years between the two discoveries ,,, so????

Beautiful pictures BTW!
I posted the V10 plate. I've had issues with these two pages for a while as well.

keilg1
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Re: 1898 Vam 10 or 12?

Post by keilg1 » Tue Sep 19, 2023 6:19 am

Curious, albeit nervous, following this post. I agree with @ljs123 about being cautious here trying to define or redefine listings based on single coins.

Fairly clearly differentiated by text even if the wording is differently arranged:
  • VAM-10: "Date set further left than normal. Second 8 doubled top inside and lower right inside of both loops."
  • VAM-12: "Slightly doubled right 8 at top and upper right inside of upper loop. Date set further left than normal."

If there's doubling of the lower loop, it ain't a VAM-12. But a single coin might not show this clearly?

Curious, too, about the FCP on the VAM-12 page that states "Full Coin Copyrighted© VAM-12 Images on loan to VAMworld courtesy of Andrew Wojtowich. Attributed by VW Message Board." That coin wasn't attributed on this post, correct, as nothing has been verified by JB or JR yet? If it has on another post, you might create a hyperlink between the reference in the variety page and the actual attribution post?

Agree with UB that this stuff needs to be carefully thought through lest we add to the confusion instead of clarity...

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andywoj00
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Re: 1898 Vam 10 or 12?

Post by andywoj00 » Tue Sep 19, 2023 1:04 pm

keilg1 wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2023 6:19 am
Curious, too, about the FCP on the VAM-12 page that states "Full Coin Copyrighted© VAM-12 Images on loan to VAMworld courtesy of Andrew Wojtowich. Attributed by VW Message Board." That coin wasn't attributed on this post, correct, as nothing has been verified by JB or JR yet? If it has on another post, you might create a hyperlink between the reference in the variety page and the actual attribution post?

Agree with UB that this stuff needs to be carefully thought through lest we add to the confusion instead of clarity...
There are linked threads, but they were under the old VW 1.0 and cannot be retrieved at this point. I would not post my LFCP at the page if I wasn't sure that it was a V12 based on the page's attribution criteria.

keilg1
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Re: 1898 Vam 10 or 12?

Post by keilg1 » Tue Sep 19, 2023 1:45 pm

Brilliant but another frustration of the VW1.0 to VW2.0 switch. Not everything could be carried over. Might mention it was a VW1.0 verification but, then again, might not matter. As long as it was it should help clarify the differences between the two.

Thanks, Gary

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andywoj00
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Re: 1898 Vam 10 or 12?

Post by andywoj00 » Tue Sep 19, 2023 2:11 pm

These are 4 that I have that I called V12. First one is pretty beat up. All have the same polish lines below the cotton leaves, the crack at the right wing tip and the long scratch at the bottom serif of the LIBERTY "Y" as the discovery coin.

I've never found a V10 that has the distinct strong doubling at the V10 page shows on this pic: http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... 0date8.JPG

My 4:
98PV12Coin1.jpg
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98PV12Coin2.jpg
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98PV12Coin3.jpg
98PV12Coin3.jpg (178.37 KiB) Viewed 435 times
98PV12Coin4.jpg
98PV12Coin4.jpg (163.91 KiB) Viewed 435 times

MarkyB
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Re: 1898 Vam 10 or 12?

Post by MarkyB » Tue Sep 19, 2023 4:26 pm

VAM 12 it is. Thanks for all the inputs. I'm traveling to upstate New York today where there's no decent coin shops to bide my time. Boooo!
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UNCLE BINGO
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Re: 1898 Vam 10 or 12?

Post by UNCLE BINGO » Wed Sep 20, 2023 2:17 am

@andywoj00 Awesome pictures, as usual and thank you for posting the plate as well, It is much better than the Big book copy I have .... @ljs123 You my friend have very observant skills , and I so agree with what you said about having the same coin in the additional photos for 2 VAMS ... Personally I think we as a group should be mindful of when that happens and talk about it , at least , and make corrections as needed . Like I said it drives me nuts when that kind of stuff happens . I mean how can I bash on PCGS for misattributing things when stuff like that happens on the wiki :lol: . (once again I am not complaining ). @keilg1 I went looking in the SSDC registry for pictures of the V-10. I too was curious if the polish lines in both VAMS were present , I did not find enough DATA to make an educated guess . I have no dog in this fight , But @MarkyB question did raise my curiosity... I see the small difference in the listing , both loops in the second 8 doubled on the v10 and only slightly doubled top loop on the 12 with polish lines at the leaves to paraphrase. I really wanted to ask @fogie If he would be able to provide a picture of the top pop v-10 just so we could put this thing to bed ????? If I missed something here please correct me , cause I really just am learning how this VAM thing is Played , I am not sure that learning thing is ever going to stop .. thank you all in advance .
" May your clashes be EDS , your breaks be LDS , and your wife not have PMS over your collecting habits! " ;)

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ljs123
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Re: 1898 Vam 10 or 12?

Post by ljs123 » Wed Sep 20, 2023 4:34 pm

@UNCLE BINGO

Just be aware that errors in attribution can occur on the SSDC listings just as they do here.
So using the SSDC photos can be helpful at times or problematic at times.
It’s good to check and recheck.

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UNCLE BINGO
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Re: 1898 Vam 10 or 12?

Post by UNCLE BINGO » Wed Sep 20, 2023 5:52 pm

@ljs123 Thank you for your words of wisdom Lee , they are always much appreciated .
" May your clashes be EDS , your breaks be LDS , and your wife not have PMS over your collecting habits! " ;)

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fogie
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Re: 1898 Vam 10 or 12?

Post by fogie » Wed Sep 20, 2023 7:39 pm

Fogie would be happy to "help" but is on the road for the next couple of weeks. When I get back home I will try to liberate the necessary coins from the bank and see what I can do to help.
Have a great day!

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