1882 VAM?

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lhnumis1
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Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:40 pm

1882 VAM?

Post by lhnumis1 » Wed Sep 13, 2023 11:36 pm

The subject coin resists my efforts at VAM attribution...
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036OBV.jpg
Obverse
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036OBV.jpg (72.92 KiB) Viewed 388 times
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036OBV2.jpg
The 1 is doubled under the upper crossbar. The Left 8 is doubled at the inside right of the upper loop.
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036OBV2.jpg (39.35 KiB) Viewed 388 times
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036OBV2B.jpg
The Left 8 is also doubled at the outside lower left of the upper loop.
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036OBV2B.jpg (18.38 KiB) Viewed 388 times
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036OBV2C.jpg
A clearer view of the doubling under the upper crossbar of the 1.
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036OBV2C.jpg (9.36 KiB) Viewed 388 times
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036OBV3.jpg
Slight surface doubling is exhibited at the outside lower left of the upper loop of right 8. The right side of the ball of the 2 is doubled.
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036OBV3.jpg (28.06 KiB) Viewed 388 times

lhnumis1
Posts: 425
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Re: 1882 VAM?

Post by lhnumis1 » Thu Sep 14, 2023 12:09 am

Additional images...

DOLLAR1882LOT662C036OBV4.jpg
The 2 exhibits raised metal at the left of the lower loop.
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036OBV4.jpg (12.98 KiB) Viewed 387 times
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036OBV5.jpg
A die crack emerging from the right side of the neck passes through the date as indicated.
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036OBV5.jpg (29.94 KiB) Viewed 387 times
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036OBV6.jpg
A die crack emerging from the left side of the neck passes through left stars 1 & 2 and terminates in the denticles to the left of star 2.
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036OBV6.jpg (22.78 KiB) Viewed 387 times
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036OBV7.jpg
The ear exhibits multiple diagonal lines at the inside bottom and doubling at the bottom of the earlobe.
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036OBV7.jpg (32.88 KiB) Viewed 387 times
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036OBV8.jpg
The right cotton boll exhibits raised lines at the lower left and lower right. It also exhibits raised lines emerging to the right from the cotton leaves to the right of the right cotton boll.
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036OBV8.jpg (30.85 KiB) Viewed 387 times
Last edited by lhnumis1 on Sat Sep 16, 2023 3:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

lhnumis1
Posts: 425
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:40 pm

Re: 1882 VAM?

Post by lhnumis1 » Thu Sep 14, 2023 12:26 am

Additional images...

DOLLAR1882LOT662C036OBV9.jpg
Raised lines are exhibited below and between the cotton bolls.
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036OBV9.jpg (23.07 KiB) Viewed 384 times
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036OBV10.jpg
Double clashed lines emerge downward from the neck-jaw junction.
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036OBV10.jpg (26.62 KiB) Viewed 384 times
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036OBV11.jpg
Clash lines emerge from the lower chin, the upper chin to the lower lip, the lower lip, lower lip to the upper lip and from the upper lip. Raised lines are exhibit in the nostril.
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036OBV11.jpg (35.88 KiB) Viewed 384 times
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036OBV12.jpg
A clash line emerges into the field from the lower Phrygian cap.
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036OBV12.jpg (18.66 KiB) Viewed 384 times
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036OBV13.jpg
A raised line is exhibited at the top of the upright of the I of LIBERTY.
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036OBV13.jpg (10.67 KiB) Viewed 384 times

lhnumis1
Posts: 425
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Re: 1882 VAM?

Post by lhnumis1 » Thu Sep 14, 2023 12:34 am

Additional images...

DOLLAR1882LOT662C036REV.jpg
Reverse
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036REV.jpg (72.08 KiB) Viewed 384 times
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036REV2.jpg
Wing clash
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036REV2.jpg (32.86 KiB) Viewed 384 times
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036REV3.jpg
VEE clash
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036REV3.jpg (37.68 KiB) Viewed 384 times
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036REV4.jpg
Clashes at upper left wreath
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036REV4.jpg (31.72 KiB) Viewed 384 times
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036REV5.jpg
A die crack is exhibited between the O, left star & U-----.
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036REV5.jpg (44.15 KiB) Viewed 384 times
Last edited by lhnumis1 on Thu Sep 14, 2023 12:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

lhnumis1
Posts: 425
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:40 pm

Re: 1882 VAM?

Post by lhnumis1 » Thu Sep 14, 2023 12:40 am

Additional images...

DOLLAR1882LOT662C036REV6.jpg
Die crack at UNI.
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036REV6.jpg (52.58 KiB) Viewed 382 times
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036REV7.jpg
Die crack at TAT.
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036REV7.jpg (29.46 KiB) Viewed 382 times
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036REV8.jpg
Die crack at OF.
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036REV8.jpg (23.95 KiB) Viewed 382 times
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036REV9.jpg
Die gouge at right star.
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036REV9.jpg (19.58 KiB) Viewed 382 times

MarkyB
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Location: Nebraska

Re: 1882 VAM?

Post by MarkyB » Thu Sep 14, 2023 1:09 am

The crack pattern around your date matches some pictures in the VAM 15 listing.

lhnumis1
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Re: 1882 VAM?

Post by lhnumis1 » Thu Sep 14, 2023 12:44 pm

Thank you MarkyB for your response! Yes, it appears that the die cracks match up with VAM 15. However, there seems to be a problem which I would like to bring to your attention and ask for your thoughts on the matter.

Below find several images. The first is of the subject coin with an image of the left 8. The left 8 appears to be doubled at its surface at the inside right of the upper loop.
This is in line with the two following images from VAM 15 webpage (no die cracks shown) which also exhibit doubling at the surface at the inside right of the upper loop.

The final image is of the left 8 from VAM 15 webpage illustrating the die cracks. The doubling in this image appears to be at the inside right of the upper loop but at the base of the 8 adjacent to the field. In addition, there appears to be an extension of the doubling that swings up to the surface where it terminates.

My reading of this is that the left 8 in the final image is from a different coin (not a VAM 15). Please advise.

DOLLAR1882LOT662C036OBV2d.jpg
Subject coin
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036OBV2d.jpg (13.7 KiB) Viewed 365 times
1882-P-15-jbc-X8XX.jpg
VAM 15 left 8 image without die cracks
1882-P-15-jbc-X8XX.jpg (44.99 KiB) Viewed 365 times
RBF1882-PV15-002.jpg
A second VAM 15 left 8 image without die cracks
RBF1882-PV15-002.jpg (100.87 KiB) Viewed 365 times
1882-P-15-jbc-8aa.jpg
Final VAM 15 left 8 image, illustrating die cracks
1882-P-15-jbc-8aa.jpg (74.37 KiB) Viewed 365 times

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Albannach
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Re: 1882 VAM?

Post by Albannach » Thu Sep 14, 2023 2:34 pm

Focus on the 2
The variety attributes itself….
Mine is not clashed, so that’s VERY interesting for me.
Find a listed variety for the 2.

As far as the 15 goes, let's get to that later.
The yellow arrow photos I believe belong to @alefzero Look at the 2 in that pic.
Look at the 15A secondaries and see if any match yours please.
Your coin is earlier and clashed and shows more doubling than the variety assigned for the 2.
It;s possible it's in the master/hub. We may find out. I'll need to pull mine to compare secondaries.

Report back when you nail the 2

lhnumis1
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Re: 1882 VAM?

Post by lhnumis1 » Fri Sep 15, 2023 6:50 am

Thank you Albannach for your analysis...much appreciated. With regret I have to say that I am unable to match the
VAM 15A with the subject coin. None of the die markers match any of the ones illustrated in my post. Also, I have not been able to match the subject coin to any other 1882 VAM.

VAM 15 still appears closest to me due what appears to be a close match of the die cracks in the date. But, I would still like to see more evidence of matching with the images in my post. Apologies for not being able to find the '2' to which you refer...your perception is no doubt superior to my own which may account for my failure in this regard.

Of course, I am much interested in any further evidence you may find.

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Albannach
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Re: 1882 VAM?

Post by Albannach » Fri Sep 15, 2023 12:06 pm

I did not expect you to match the 15a
I been down this road…

It will end up (likely) as “multiple die pairs may exist”
I don’t subscribe to that ..,

Show us the 2 please tight shot, just the digit, best you can.
IMG_0225.jpeg
IMG_0225.jpeg (39.58 KiB) Viewed 324 times
Thanks for humoring me, this may get good…

lhnumis1
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Re: 1882 VAM?

Post by lhnumis1 » Fri Sep 15, 2023 2:17 pm

Apologies in advance for the resolution and quality of the image below. With the jury rigged, Rube Goldberg setup at hand and the less than optimal lighting available, it is the best I can manage. The red arrow points to the doubling on the right side of the ball of this closed 2. The black spike is surface toning IMO.

Given the limitations, nevertheless, I trust this image may prove to be of some help.

DOLLAR1882LOT662C036OBV16.jpg
2 from the subject coin
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036OBV16.jpg (19.41 KiB) Viewed 319 times

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Albannach
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Re: 1882 VAM?

Post by Albannach » Fri Sep 15, 2023 3:32 pm

I see VAM 8 :shock:

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Albannach
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Re: 1882 VAM?

Post by Albannach » Fri Sep 15, 2023 6:16 pm

Please take a close look at first 8
I suspect you will see a a small chip starting left crook, likely occurs with the cracks during the clash

lhnumis1
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Re: 1882 VAM?

Post by lhnumis1 » Fri Sep 15, 2023 8:31 pm

Below find several images of the subject coin and their counterparts from the VAM 8 Webpage. At face value, I find it difficult to attribute the subject coin as a VAM 8 inasmuch as the images and their counterparts do not appear to match up...

DOLLAR1882LOT662C036OBV16.jpg
The 2 appears doubled at the right of the ball.
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036OBV16.jpg (19.41 KiB) Viewed 296 times
RBF1882-PV8-3808--001.jpg
The 2 appears doubled at the inside top of the upper loop.
RBF1882-PV8-3808--001.jpg (134.63 KiB) Viewed 296 times
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036OBV17.jpg
A raised diagonal line appears at the base of the left upright of the R (red arrow). Lines are absent at the top of the left upright of the R (red ellipse).
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036OBV17.jpg (13.03 KiB) Viewed 296 times
RBF1882-PV8-3808--002.jpg
Two lines in the form of a 'VEE' appear at the top of the left upright of the R. Lines are absent at the base of the left upright of the R
RBF1882-PV8-3808--002.jpg (114.05 KiB) Viewed 296 times

lhnumis1
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Re: 1882 VAM?

Post by lhnumis1 » Fri Sep 15, 2023 8:46 pm

Additional images...
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036OBV18.jpg
The area below the Phrygian cap on the subject coin appears absent any lines (red ellipse).
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036OBV18.jpg (13.56 KiB) Viewed 296 times
RBF1882-PV8-3808--003.jpg
The area below the Phrygian cap of VAM 8 exhibits a strong raised line (yellow arrow).
RBF1882-PV8-3808--003.jpg (112.67 KiB) Viewed 296 times
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036REV10.jpg
The area of the upper tailfeathers of the subject coin appears to exhibit a single substantive raised line (red arrow).
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036REV10.jpg (20.56 KiB) Viewed 296 times
RBF1882-PV8-3808--004.jpg
The area of the upper tailfeathers of the VAM 8 appears to exhibit numerous raised lines (3 yellow arrows).
RBF1882-PV8-3808--004.jpg (117.66 KiB) Viewed 296 times

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Albannach
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Re: 1882 VAM?

Post by Albannach » Sat Sep 16, 2023 12:11 am

You're doing fine so far!

Is there strong doubling like V8 states (or is it smutz/shadow I see)?
^poke it with a stick^

If it's there it would qualify as VAM 8, but as you showed, die markers do not match with those pics.

So it qualifies as VAM 15, but it's not the 15A die pair, as you noted.

Can you back off a bit and show us more neck with the clash (not so close) and a tighter shot of the hair V please?

lhnumis1
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Re: 1882 VAM?

Post by lhnumis1 » Sat Sep 16, 2023 5:19 am

Below, please find images of the Neck-Jaw clash, along with a second view of the lower hair VEE. Just quickly, with the coin in hand, I do not see evidence of I,N,G or R,U,S,T letter transfer on the obverse. Letter transfer from clashing on the reverse is also absent.

At this point, my gut feeling is that the subject coin may be a VAM 15, but, with the caveat mentioned above in response to MarkyB, that the left 8 appears to be doubled at the field rather than at the surface, as shown in the date images with die cracks on the VAM 15 webpage.

The problem for me is the paucity of images shown of the date with die cracks variety both obverse & reverse on the VAM 15 webpage.

If the member who submitted those images could supply additional images from his coin showing the extension of the the date die cracks through the bust to stars 1 and 2 on the left, I would be more apt to accept the attribution of VAM 15.

Additional acceptance in this regard would be an image of the horizontal die crack through the lower hair.

If additional images of die markers were submitted that matched those of the subject coin as shown in the images above, I might tend to relent and look the other way about the left 8 problem. Trust these opinions and images are of some help.

DOLLAR1882LOT662C036OBV10A.jpg
Obverse clash with extended neck
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036OBV10A.jpg (63.8 KiB) Viewed 269 times
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036OBV14.jpg
Magnified view of the 2nd hair VEE with associated die crack.
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036OBV14.jpg (27.91 KiB) Viewed 269 times
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036OBV15.jpg
Lower hair and designer initial. Note the over polishing and the resulting missing hair above the 1st & 2nd hair VEES and below the designer initial.
DOLLAR1882LOT662C036OBV15.jpg (77.54 KiB) Viewed 269 times

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Albannach
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Re: 1882 VAM?

Post by Albannach » Sat Sep 16, 2023 5:11 pm

Compare the 1 E series to your crack please

lhnumis1
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Re: 1882 VAM?

Post by lhnumis1 » Sat Sep 16, 2023 9:31 pm

In examining the images of the 1E series, the only illustration close to the subject coin is the first image of the 1E2 under the title "ADDITIONAL PHOTOS: More Photos from the re-instated Coin Submitted to LVA in 2011". It illustrates the crack emerging to the left from the neck and continuing to the first left star.

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Albannach
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Re: 1882 VAM?

Post by Albannach » Sun Sep 17, 2023 3:48 pm

Does it look like the same placement across the hair V?

Also, just to add insult to injury here. Check out the VAM 11 doubling, especially the first 8...

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