What is a Die Study?

[johnhenry9009]

This may be a dumb question but I have been wondering about what a Die Study is and how one is done. I know that it probably means the progressing of a Die or Dies that eventually deteriorate or suffer a failure that will result in the Die/Dies being removed and replaced. But I feel as if I am missing something important to understanding it? Any explanation

[weth]

People can pursue it differently, but typically a die study is for a particular year and mintmark. In such a pursuit, one tries to find not only examples of each die pair, but also to understand how each evolved, from early die state (with fine polishing lines and clear doubling) to late die state (with die breaks and clashes). Sometimes in such a pursuit, one finds that an early die state listing that is the same as a different listing for the late die state, and so one attempts to resolve that discrepancy.

For some particularly weird die pairs, sometimes a die study is trying to resolve how that specific die pair evolved.

How is a die study done? Procuring examples, comparing them, continuing ad infinitum....

[LateDateMorganGuy]

Weth's description is pretty good.

I think one of the things that is not talked about a lot is that die studies can identify which markers or PUPS survive all die states. Thus a die study can eliminate a lot of "but my coin has this". Some markers appear or disappear during the die life. Without a die study, this is all but impossible. That is why there are photos on the VAM pages depicting a lot of markers that may, or may not be present on a particular coin.

Another fun thing that a die study can do is show the die incest at a mint for a particular mintage, and the order in which dies were married to different opposing dies. SF coins are notorious for this. JB calls this a "emission sequence".

[Albannach]

Coin, coins, coins, coins....coins.

Varieties collecting and die study inevitably clash. Black/white, good/evil, day/night. One is the yin to the opposite yang.

In 1882 supposably there were 55 obv and rev dies (pairs) that struck 11+ million coins in Philly.

To get to the question, Die study is:
If Obv 1 and Rev 55 were "paired" and struck 10, 000 total coins, what VAM is would that be? The answer could literally be Vam 11, Vam 19 and VAM 21.

If you're OCD, I recommend NOT jumping in to see how deep the water is, without a life jacket.

Hope that helped a little.

[RogerB]

An additional outcome is that detailed information can help identify high quality counterfeits made with incorrect die pairs.

[davidkclose]

First of all, there is good information for starting a date study in posts above.
Having done date studies on most dates of Peace dollars (sorry, not 1921 with an estimated 400 die marriages!), I would recommend starting with a low mintage date to "get your feet wet" In doing this, I have found nearly 100 die marriages for 1923D (mintage 6.8 million, estimated die life up to 500,000 strikes per die), some of which I am not aware of a duplicate. I have made many discoveries, and quite a few kills (which is much harder to do) in the process.
As mentioned above, it requires being at least a little OCD, and looking at MANY coins. I would recommend keeping a photo library of important die markers which are not likely to degrade as the die wears. For 1923D that is easy - most of them are die cracks, although beware of "evil mimics".
For anyone doing a date study on any date in Peace dollars, I will be happy to share what I have learned.
Hope this is helpful, and have fun in the process!
David

[johnhenry9009]

Thanks y'all for the input and information. I have even thought about doing one for the 1889-O at some point . I think will slowly work my way to eventually doing a one with Peace dollars but that is a project for a later date.

[tbconcrete]

Simple answer is its a sickness of obsession. When you need to find and document every set of dies, or combination of dies, used for a particular date/mint.
tiny

[Albannach]

Simple answer is its a sickness of obsession. When you need to find and document every set of dies, or combination of dies, used for a particular date/mint.
tiny

Hi my name is Doug...

I bought another 15A today, I can't help it...it's like a reflex action when the doctor hits you with that little hammer in your knee.

Anyway, I am beginning to think it's not a break at all.

[weth]

One word of caution - it's easy to start a die study, but it is rare to find full closure.

I feel that closure, at least for now, with the 1885 O set. But not for either the 1899 P or 1883 P sets.
I still have my white whales that compel me to keep searching, searching...

[davidkclose]

Perhaps the first requirement for starting a date study is you have to have OCD, so that you will not stop until fairly certain that the task is complete. A date study should strive to at least identify (although not necessarily own) every die pair, and every major die state. Pick a date, and go for it! The VAM collecting community is here to help anyone who asks.
In doing so, you will likely be able to make at least a few corrections to the current VAM listings, by new discoveries & elimination of duplicate listings. Any new discovery will likely either be minor or ultra-rare, but there is always the "thrill of the hunt", especially when you find one of the ultra rare ones!
Have fun and pursue your passion!

[alefzero]

A die study is a way to fill my cases at shows with Morgan dollars of the same date that take forever to sell. But it helps flesh out the listings, eliminating duplicates, adding new discoveries, sometimes determining die use sequences, lots of fun stuff.

[LateDateMorganGuy]

One example of what can come out of die studies is shown in the following link.

http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... _Varieties

[fogie]

What is a Die Study?Quote johnhenry9009
by johnhenry9009 » Sat Aug 26, 2023 9:16 pm

This may be a dumb question but I have been wondering about what a Die Study is and how one is done. I know that it probably means the progressing of a Die or Dies that eventually deteriorate or suffer a failure that will result in the Die/Dies being removed and replaced. But I feel as if I am missing something important to understanding it? Any explanation

A lot of work.
A really good thing to do.
The term is a bit of a misnomer as it really does not revolve around a die but rather it is the study of a date/mintmark combination and ALL the die pairs used to produce said date/mintmark. It really helps to have a significant number of the appropriate coins at your disposal. Generally speaking - but the time your are done with your "die study" - you will have a pretty significant collection of the date/mintmark you did your die study on. VAMon!

[messydesk]

A die study is a way to fill my cases at shows with Morgan dollars of the same date that take forever to sell. But it helps flesh out the listings, eliminating duplicates, adding new discoveries, sometimes determining die use sequences, lots of fun stuff.

Is @fogie filling your cases with his die studies?

[alefzero]

A die study is a way to fill my cases at shows with Morgan dollars of the same date that take forever to sell. But it helps flesh out the listings, eliminating duplicates, adding new discoveries, sometimes determining die use sequences, lots of fun stuff.

Is @fogie filling your cases with his die studies?

No, he just gets credit for my discoveries. LOL (Don't have time or patience anymore to send them in.)