1921-D VAM-1N2 to 1N3 transition point?

[keilg1]

I have an advanced unicorn but unsure if she's a full 1N3 yet. On the back I certainly see a full break from rim to rim and the field shows displacement but I'm not sure it would qualify as a full retained cud compared with some of the monsters out there. I believe this is a later stage of the die break because the crack on the obverse that runs from the neck point upwards is rather massive compared with other pictures, and the date itself has an undescribed radial die break below the 'standard' break across the digits. Despite this, methinks she might still be a 1N2.

Your thoughts?

Thanks,

TED displacement.jpg (99.41 KiB) Viewed 1201 times

Crack neckline and date.jpg (111.14 KiB) Viewed 1201 times

date break.jpg (106.28 KiB) Viewed 1201 times

[DHalladay]

1N3

[RogerRock]

1N3

Transition point from 1N2 to 1N3 is top of D showing flush with horn die break. The die break progression will show the top of the D merge with horn die break. Rim to rim retained cud above TED and die break at date are also noted.

[keilg1]

Thanks. The radial die crack under the date is quite interesting. I'd like to have a coin with a more complete filling of the cud on the reverse so the hunt continues!

[RogerRock]

Thanks. The radial die crack under the date is quite interesting. I'd like to have a coin with a more complete filling of the cud on the reverse so the hunt continues!

Displaced die breaks at date are found on several other 1921 D Morgan Dollars. VAM 1DL3 displays symmetrical die breaks at left and right ones. Also , check out VAM 1P3 , 1BG2 , and 1BQ2

[collectinsince65]

I agree with others 1N3.
Had one a 4 or 5 years ago.
Sent to JB for PCGS bulk grading.
Came back MS62 VSS 1N3
Sold it about 2 years ago on the bay.
PM me if interested in what it sold for.
Mike

[messydesk]

Yes, VAM 1N3. When pictures leave you in doubt, read the specifications.

1N1: Scribbles
1N2: Break forms above D
1N3: Retained cud forms above ED

I would entertain listing VAM 1N4 if presented with a coin that shows break above the D merged into the cud. It would need to be of sufficiently high grade to verify that it's a cud and not wear.

[DHalladay]

IMO the VLDS example seen in the "additional photos" part of the 1N3 attribution page is well deserving of a 1N4 attribution. It is truly spectacular and special – and I believe exceedingly scarce. I've looked for years, but haven't even come close to finding one.

[messydesk]

It's close, but I'm going to hold out for the tops of the letters and horn being gone. The horn on the D might still be visible on the specimen shown. I'd have to be able to describe a clear, objective difference between the two, and not just say something like "more advanced retained cud." I don't want to create gray areas. To be sure, the coin mentioned is worthy of a healthy premium.

[VamHelsing]

I agree 1N3. Had one in MS slabbed 63. sold for a VERY good profit years ago

[lioncutter]

I would entertain listing VAM 1N4 if presented with a coin that shows break above the D merged into the cud. It would need to be of sufficiently high grade to verify that it's a cud and not wear.

I still have the discovery 1N3 that is described as the VLDS in the additional photos. I also have a ICG MS 62 VAM 1N3 and both are VSS attributed. If it is worth mailing both to messy to possibly get to a 1N4, I can.

[messydesk]

Does anyone have a VAM 1N3, with the crack above the T into the rim, in low grade (VGish) for the purpose of showing how the break on the D looks when well worn? If I'm going to list a VAM 1N4, I want to be sure that it can still be differentiated from VAM 1N3 in lower grades where the rim is still separated from the letters.

[DHalladay]

Does anyone have a VAM 1N3, with the crack above the T into the rim, in low grade (VGish) for the purpose of showing how the break on the D looks when well worn? If I'm going to list a VAM 1N4, I want to be sure that it can still be differentiated from VAM 1N3 in lower grades where the rim is still separated from the letters.

My lowest is AU58 John. Sorry.

[bjsilverfox]

Here is my ANACS XF40 1N3 labeled VAM 1N3 VLDS. Very similar to the VLDS pictured in the additional photos section of the attribution page. Hope this helps,

Image715.jpg (144.68 KiB) Viewed 771 times

[Albannach]

Sure looks like it melds with the cud at the dents…

[messydesk]

Here is my ANACS XF40 1N3 labeled VAM 1N3 VLDS. Very similar to the VLDS pictured in the additional photos section of the attribution page. Hope this helps,

It does. The potential VAM 1N4 I'm looking at is later die stage with the top edge of the "horn" gone, also XF.

[messydesk]

Anyone else have anything that resembles this or something later? This one is the latest die stage I've seen, but depending on the light, you can still see the top of the D and the horn. I think I want to reserve 1N4 for the die chunk being further gone such that there's no gray area, especially in lower grades. Depending on how I light the coin, the top of the D and the horn goes from visible to not visible. This is an XF coin. In F, I don't think the lighting would change the appearance of the top of the D. Since this is a cud in the anvil die, the die chunk is slowly falling away, It is left as an exercise to the reader to find coins where the chunk has fallen away further.

21dv1n3lds-1.jpg (171.99 KiB) Viewed 656 times

21dv1n3lds-2.jpg (167.46 KiB) Viewed 656 times

[fogie]

Good call...

[DHalladay]

Agreed. Top arc of the horn is still visible.

[keilg1]

These latter ones seem beyond the stage of my coin. I can appreciate the difficulty of drawing easy conclusions about wear-related features versus die-related ones - the more the coin is worn, the more difficult it is to differentiate smudginess from a full blown cud (and filled in metal). Thanks for continuing to refine the end points (or potential ones)... I'll keep a look out for a MS64 1N4 version (hee hee)...