1878-P VAM-116C EDS and VAM-140 confusion

[keilg1]

Hi all,

Perhaps this is a die 1 vs die 2 thing for the 140/140A, but I can't figure it out based on the information on the webpages. It also might be that the pictures on the 140 page are from a rather worn coin that is hiding a few features...

I have what I believe is a 116C EDS. It's stated the 116C and 140 share the same obverse: "Fine crack from 1-2 left stars to 18 is found on VAM-140 D2 and VAM-116C" (from the http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... -P_VAM-140 page).

In addition to the crack, there is a clear eye chip on my coin. This being the case, shouldn't the other major PUPs of the 116C (EDS as well as the slightly later LDS) be seen on the 140?

To show you what I mean, the P and L on my coin are spectacularly doubled, but the corresponding pictures on the 140 page are rather bland:

1878P-V116C P detail GR.JPG (42.77 KiB) Viewed 1870 times

1878P-V116C L detail GR.JPG (36.39 KiB) Viewed 1870 times

Of course I'm presuming the 116C preceded the use with the different reverse(s) to produce the 140/140A, but would the crack and chip remain as they do/did but the details on the lettering fade that quickly?

Here's FCPs and a close up of at least the major reverse scratches:

1878P-V116C FCO GR.jpg (346.49 KiB) Viewed 1870 times

1878P-V116C FCR GR.jpg (245.77 KiB) Viewed 1870 times

1878P-V116C Arrow feather scratches GR.JPG (154.7 KiB) Viewed 1870 times

Oh, and I tried to access SSDC Vol 7 Issue 18 to see the progression guide, but the pdf on the SSDC website is corrupted somehow - can't view the pictures.

Thanks in advance for any clarification,

[Vamsky]

Check the 'O' in God. 116 has a closed 'O', 140 the 'O' is open.

[keilg1]

Check the 'O' in God. 116 has a closed 'O', 140 the 'O' is open.

Sorry, meant to be more clear. I'm talking obverses here, not reverses.

[vamnuke]

All 116-116C LDS have closed ‘o’ in God; based on obv die crack, you would have a 116C; one reverse die cracking. Nothing at bow so not LDS; Rev die was changed out later to the same as used in v144. Die crack on obv likely caused obv die to be retired and replaced creating 144.

[keilg1]

Thanks @vamnuke, but this information is still missing my question. I know all of this - the question has to do with how the obverse PUPs changed over time when the pairing went from the 116C to the 140 (technically only die #2): there are some that continue (chip behind the eye, crack at neck, scratch in R (LIBERTY), etc.) but a significant difference in the doubled letters (P and L shown). To be ultra specific, my coin has significant surface doubling on those letters as well as shifts in the letter borders, but the 140 pictures don't show nearly as much.

Again, could just be the coin on the 140 page was rather worn and any details lost to wear.

[vampicker]

The coin on the page is clearly circulated. The doubling on the E PLURIBUS UNUM letters is all still there throughout the progression. This had all been cleaned up nicely then got bollocksed up when the EDS of VAM 140A got listed. I will never understand why it didn't just get called 140A EDS. Your con is VAM 116C in its earlier stage as you noted

[vamnuke]

As the obv die progressed, the only thing of note was the obverse die crack to the left of the date that grew...

[vamnuke]

Also, 116A LDS was clashed and the obv (& rev) clash marks polished away w/ V116B.

[vampicker]

Yeah, that 116A LDS is pretty spectacular. It's one of those clashes that makes you wonder how there was no letter transfer

[vamnuke]

Clashed 116A is a rare bird, too…overall the obverse die progression set is quite the challenge…