Need some Help with 1921 P D2 Please :)

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jrfaust
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Need some Help with 1921 P D2 Please :)

Post by jrfaust » Tue Apr 18, 2023 4:05 pm

Could use some help with this 21. The other Jody and I have been up and down the VAM pages a few times with no luck :(
I believe I have a pretty fair photo of the scribbles and my attempt at a crack guide.
Here's a list of what I see.
OBV:
Dbl'd to trip left stars and date with a few right stars dbl'd
Scribble die scratches above upper hair curl (forehead) with some very heavy file lines in LIBERTY
REV
Dbl'd "OF AMERICA" Dbl'd Left Wing Tip and what looks like trip tops of letters "UST" of TRUST. The stems and leaves of the upper right wreath look doubled as well.
Here's a few photos of the scribbles, crack guide (my attempt) and rev doubling. I can provide more photos as needed.
Thanks again for your help and enjoy! :popcorn:
1921 P rv tf gap5.jpg
1921 P rv tf gap5.jpg (240.76 KiB) Viewed 803 times
1921 P ob crk guide.jpg
1921 P ob crk guide.jpg (176.7 KiB) Viewed 803 times
1921 P rv crk guide.jpg
1921 P rv crk guide.jpg (225.89 KiB) Viewed 803 times
1921 rv of.jpg
1921 rv of.jpg (159.58 KiB) Viewed 803 times
1921 rv mer.jpg
1921 rv mer.jpg (234.34 KiB) Viewed 803 times

DHalladay
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Re: Need some Help with 1921 P D2 Please :)

Post by DHalladay » Tue Apr 18, 2023 4:55 pm

I was not able to find your coin in the D2 die crack guide... or in the scribbles guide... or in the group of 63 new D2 crack maps I am in the process of having added to the crack guide.

It would seem to be an excellent candidate for going to @messydesk. Good luck!
When in doubt... don't.

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jrfaust
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Re: Need some Help with 1921 P D2 Please :)

Post by jrfaust » Tue Apr 18, 2023 5:02 pm

Thanks so much Dennis @DHalladay for your quick response! Also, thanks other Jody @Jodemyer for your help as well! :D

DHalladay
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Re: Need some Help with 1921 P D2 Please :)

Post by DHalladay » Tue Apr 18, 2023 5:38 pm

@jrfaust Is that a 1921-P... or actually a 1921-D?
When in doubt... don't.

weth
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Re: Need some Help with 1921 P D2 Please :)

Post by weth » Tue Apr 18, 2023 5:51 pm

It appears to be a moderately late die state 21P VAM 3FL to me...

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jrfaust
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Re: Need some Help with 1921 P D2 Please :)

Post by jrfaust » Tue Apr 18, 2023 6:17 pm

It's a P Dennis @DHalladay
@weth the scribbles look similar but nothing else matches up. Die cracks, doubling etc.

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jrfaust
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Re: Need some Help with 1921 P D2 Please :)

Post by jrfaust » Tue Apr 18, 2023 6:20 pm

Dennis, @DHalladay the mark you see is not a mint mark. here's a better pic of the reverse.
1921 P rv1.jpg
1921 P rv1.jpg (214.8 KiB) Viewed 779 times

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Albannach
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Re: Need some Help with 1921 P D2 Please :)

Post by Albannach » Tue Apr 18, 2023 6:39 pm

Try V85 for the rev

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jrfaust
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Re: Need some Help with 1921 P D2 Please :)

Post by jrfaust » Tue Apr 18, 2023 7:16 pm

Thanks @Albannach I did look at the V85 but "ED STATES" not tripled. The scribbles are wrong as well. Thanks again! :D

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Albannach
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Re: Need some Help with 1921 P D2 Please :)

Post by Albannach » Tue Apr 18, 2023 9:42 pm

No problem, it's worth noting the possibility.

There are precious few doubled/tripped reverses in the series. The 85 (and someone pointed at 65 on the page notes)would be EDS to this state.
Looking at the extent of the polishing on this coin, IF the pics on the 85 and 65 page are accurately attributed, the possibility is not out of the question. IMHO

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messydesk
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Re: Need some Help with 1921 P D2 Please :)

Post by messydesk » Wed Apr 19, 2023 4:34 am

weth wrote:
Tue Apr 18, 2023 5:51 pm
It appears to be a moderately late die state 21P VAM 3FL to me...
I agree with this.
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DHalladay
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Re: Need some Help with 1921 P D2 Please :)

Post by DHalladay » Wed Apr 19, 2023 12:58 pm

@weth and @messydesk

Boy, you guys are good! I also agree with 3FL.

I totally couldn't match this coin's scribbles to the poor-ish photo in the scribbles guide, which barely shows the nice horizontal thing between speed bumps 3 & 4 seen in this thread. And 3FL isn't in the break guide, so that was no help either.

My apologies again.
When in doubt... don't.

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jrfaust
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Re: Need some Help with 1921 P D2 Please :)

Post by jrfaust » Wed Apr 19, 2023 1:50 pm

Good call @weth and @messydesk Yepper, it's a later die state of the 3FL! The photos on the VAM page of the wreath bow and left wing file line is what sold it for me. Sorry I didn't look closer but the description and text on the page is so vague. I did notice as well that there is a comment that states
"The text above is a guess. VAM-3FL has not been listed in the Supplements."
Not sure where we go from here. :popcorn:
There is tripling of UST/OF/AMER with tripling on the left wing tip and doubling of upper right wreath stem and leaves. Here's a few more photos of the bow, wing file lines and some of the tripling on the right side.
See if you agree that the Bow and wing file lines are a match.
Thanks again everyone for your input! :D
The other Jody
1921 P bow.jpg
1921 P bow.jpg (133.95 KiB) Viewed 715 times
1921 P wing.jpg
1921 P wing.jpg (262.79 KiB) Viewed 715 times
1921 P TRUST.jpg
1921 P TRUST.jpg (241.57 KiB) Viewed 715 times
1921 P AME.jpg
1921 P AME.jpg (231.49 KiB) Viewed 715 times
Attachments
1921 P wreath.jpg
1921 P wreath.jpg (293.75 KiB) Viewed 715 times

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messydesk
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Re: Need some Help with 1921 P D2 Please :)

Post by messydesk » Wed Apr 19, 2023 4:55 pm

I'll look for the discovery letter for that variety when I get the chance, probably tomorrow night. Then I can put the actual specification on VW.
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weth
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Re: Need some Help with 1921 P D2 Please :)

Post by weth » Wed Apr 19, 2023 5:09 pm

It certainly makes sense to revise VAM descriptions to note additional die features which may have been missed in the initial listing. Sometimes LVA was hesitant to note doubling if there was also machine doubling on the example examined, or if the features were obscured by wear or toning.

I was going to inquire about your example not matching the VAM 3FL die breaks and ask what physical example or documentation you were looking at which showed them to be different, but you seem to have come around...

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jrfaust
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Re: Need some Help with 1921 P D2 Please :)

Post by jrfaust » Wed Apr 19, 2023 11:17 pm

Thanks again @weth for helping me see the light :D This was a tuff one for me. You guys are good!!!!

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jrfaust
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Re: Need some Help with 1921 P D2 Please :)

Post by jrfaust » Wed Jun 21, 2023 2:31 pm

@messydesk John, did you ever get a chance to look at the discovery letter for this coin? Let me know if you would like to see this coin in hand and I'll shoot it of to you.
Thanks John!

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messydesk
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Re: Need some Help with 1921 P D2 Please :)

Post by messydesk » Thu Jun 22, 2023 3:38 am

jrfaust wrote:
Wed Jun 21, 2023 2:31 pm
@messydesk John, did you ever get a chance to look at the discovery letter for this coin? Let me know if you would like to see this coin in hand and I'll shoot it of to you.
Thanks John!
I can't remember if I looked for it or found it. I'm still at the Summer Seminar, so hopefully I'll remember to look when I get home.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

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