1885 VAM?

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1885 VAM?

Post by lhnumis1 » Mon Apr 17, 2023 4:07 am

The 1885 imaged below has been troubling me. Can't seem to pin it down.

Went through the Category 2- normal date doubled 5 obverses and Category 5-normal date C3b reverses w/dbld tailfeathers along with the reverses, checking the C3b arrow feathers doubled reverses & the C3d doubled inner wing feathers reverses without success. Additional images in follow-up post...
DOLLAR1885LOT427OBV.jpg (61.7 KiB) Viewed 330 times
Normal date right edge setting. Possible doubled one at top left of lower crossbar.
DOLLAR1885LOT427OBV2.jpg (48.68 KiB) Viewed 330 times
Doubled 5 straight on image.
DOLLAR1885LOT427OBV3.jpg (31.44 KiB) Viewed 330 times
Appears tripled 5, viewed at a steep angle.
DOLLAR1885LOT427OBV4.jpg (96.64 KiB) Viewed 330 times

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Re: 1885 VAM?

Post by lhnumis1 » Mon Apr 17, 2023 4:41 am

Additional images of the reverse of the collection coin...

DOLLAR1885LOT427REV.jpg (63.38 KiB) Viewed 329 times
Top two inner right wing feathers are slightly doubled.
DOLLAR1885LOT427REV2.jpg (44.49 KiB) Viewed 329 times
Both arrow feathers are slightly doubled.
DOLLAR1885LOT427REV3.jpg (38.83 KiB) Viewed 329 times
An inner leaf of cluster 4 and outer leaf of cluster 5 of the right wreath are slightly doubled.
DOLLAR1885LOT427REV4.jpg (86.96 KiB) Viewed 329 times
Middle & lower arrowheads are slightly doubled.
DOLLAR1885LOT427REV5.jpg (61.24 KiB) Viewed 329 times

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Re: 1885 VAM?

Post by fogie » Mon Apr 17, 2023 5:43 am

I think you are going to find that the key to attributing this one is the Doubled 5. The other observations appear to be minutiae and that is very often not listed in the official description. VAMon
Have a great day!

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Re: 1885 VAM?

Post by lhnumis1 » Wed Apr 19, 2023 4:14 pm

Further analysis of the 1885 P collection coin follows: Following fogie’s excellent advice we examine the Doubled fives.

Near dates, very near dates & very far dates do not exist for the doubled 5s.

Text descriptions below in RED are absent from the collection coin.

For those who prefer the gist of what was found—the collection coin is not found among the listed doubled fives (closest appears to be VAM10). The collection coin may be described as follows using the existing images previously provided along with an additional image shown below.


The date is set at ‘normal right edge’.
Quad 5-see enhanced resolution image below.
Doubling of the 1 (one) at top left of the bottom crossbar(caveat this may be die erosion). see image above.


Has elements of C3b (Doubled arrow feathers) and C3d (Doubled inner wing feathers)-See previous images above. It appears incorrect to describe the collection coin as C3a, given the C3b and C3d features it contains. .

Doubled middle and lower arrowheads.

Doubled inner and outer leaves in right wreath at clusters 4 and 5.

Trust this analysis may hold up but would be pleased if a member could provide evidence to the contrary.

Image of 5 with additional resolution:
higher resolution image of 5.
DOLLAR1885LOT427OBV5.jpg (19.92 KiB) Viewed 293 times

Per the 1885 VAM web page (Sort by Reverse:Specialty Catagories:Doubled Fives:) the Doubled Fives are as listed below:

1 1885 P Doubled 5 Varieties

1.1 9 Normal Date Varieties with Doubled 5


6 (revised) III2 6 - C3a (Doubled Date) (189)
Obverse III2 6 - All numerals in date doubled at very top with large shift. Tops of 85 showing in denticles as raised curved bar in single denticle space below right edge of 1 and straight raised bar below left 8.


10 (revised) III2 10 - C3a (Doubled 5)
Obverse III2 10 - 5 doubled across the top. Date set in the middle of normal tolerance. There is a small vertical mark on tenth denticle right of the neck index point.
Die marker - Some pitting at top and left outside of ear.
The doubling on the 5 tapers down from left to right and has a steeper cut on the outside top corner of 5 as shown by arrow on plate.

Date placement is different than that of the [1885-P VAM-2] and 1885-P VAM-11.
Early specimens show the C3b reverse features.


11 (revised) III2 11 - C3a (Tripled 5)
Obverse III2 11 - 5 in date tripled all across top. Date set to the left side of normal position tolerance.
Die marker - Long vertical polishing line at left end of Phrygian Cap ribbon.

Very difficult to locate, not necessarily rare but in hand the tripling jumps at you, extremely nice tripling of the 5 in date.
Lightly Doubled right stars.
Long vertical die scratch in tip of L in LIBERTY.


12 III2 12 - C3a (Doubled 5) (188)
Obverse III2 12 - 5 in date doubled at top outside as a thin line set well above top of 5.


13 (revised) III2 13 • C3a (Doubled 5) (189)
Obverse III2 13 - 5 in date doubled all across the top outside with doubling slightly stronger on right half.
Die Marker - Vertical polishing line back of Liberty head mouth.

VAM14,14a (clashed version of 14)

14(revised) III2 14 • C3a (Doubled 5 Top Line, Thread Impression) (188)
Obverse III214– 5 in date is doubled at top outside as a thin broken line set very far above top of 5. Thin, curvy thread-like die impression below Phrygian cap ribbon.


15 III2 15 • C3a (Doubled 18-5) (188)
Obverse III2 15 - 18-5 doubled in date. 1 doubled at top as a thin curved line. First 8 doubled strongly at bottom inside of lower loop as a thick bar. 5 doubled slightly at very top as a thin line.
Lines in LIBERTY are unique to the 1885-P VAM-15 obverse die.


38 III2 34 - C3a (Doubled 5 Top ) (179) Proof
Obverse III2 34 - Slightly doubled top of 5.
Die marker - Diagonal polishing line in T of Liberty.
Reverse C3a - Slightly doubled bottom edge of lower arrow shaft.
Die marker - Tiny die chips in wing-neck gap.

1.2 1885-P VAM-2 Doubled 5

Obverse III2 2 - 5 in date doubled all across the top. Some specimens show a faint dash well below the second 8.
Date set on right side of normal position tolerance. See image below from VAM2 web page.

Die Marker - Long, vertical polishing line near Phrygian cap ribbon.

Comes with and without long, vertical polishing line on Phrygian cap band as shown below.

Image from VAM2 web page follows and exhibits date position a bit left of normal:
Date setting from VAM2 web page.
1885-P-V2-2015REVISIONCOIN-MHI-COMPS-a.jpg (76.35 KiB) Viewed 293 times

1.3 6 Far Date Varieties with Doubled 5 (doubling not at top)

VAM5, 5A
VAM23, 23A, 23B
VAM31 proof

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