New 80-P Checkmark Variety

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coinsupclose
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2022 5:45 am

New 80-P Checkmark Variety

Post by coinsupclose » Sat Apr 08, 2023 11:23 pm

There’s been some interesting 1880-P checkmark discussion lately which makes the timing of this find a little crazy. It appears this is an unknown example of a checkmark belonging to the Hot 50 family. Just as VAMs 29 & 53 share the same obverse, this new coin also shares an obverse with another one of the 80-P checkmark varieties from the Hot 50 Set — VAM 41. The reverse looks to be from VAM 79 though I’m hoping someone here can confirm!

I’m posting lots of images. The coin with the PL obverse is the new one in question while the V41 is toned.

A seemingly quick way to tell the difference between these two examples is that V41 has a double chipped first 8 with a G that doesn’t have a chip while this new coin in question has an 8 without the chips but a chipped G. Kind of cool.

The cracks on the reverse are easily distinguishable from one another with the ones on the new one popping out more. I don’t own a V41A but that stage develops a few more cracks than my V41. It has has die cracks between O-Star-U as well as more crack development at the wing. You can see these at https://www.pcgs.com/cert/25293300.

Each reverse has its own distinct set of lines in the wings, by the neck, at the ribbon, as well as between the legs. The new one has two thread-like impressions on the lowest arrow shaft which look a lot like the ones imaged on the V79 page.

Questions for VW:

1. Does anyone have a VAM 79? Does this reverse match?
2. Does anyone know of an EDS V41 without the first 8 chips or in this early of a state?

Thanks!
Michael
1880 New Obv.jpg
1880 New Obv.jpg (374.39 KiB) Viewed 915 times
1880 New Rev.jpg
1880 New Rev.jpg (396.46 KiB) Viewed 915 times
1880-Collage-VAM-New.jpg
1880-Collage-VAM-New.jpg (316.04 KiB) Viewed 915 times
1880-New-Legs.jpg
1880-New-Legs.jpg (307.46 KiB) Viewed 915 times
1880-New-OF-A-Crack.jpg
1880-New-OF-A-Crack.jpg (273.47 KiB) Viewed 915 times

coinsupclose
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2022 5:45 am

Re: New 80-P Checkmark Variety

Post by coinsupclose » Sat Apr 08, 2023 11:24 pm

1880-New-Trust-Wing.jpg
1880-New-Trust-Wing.jpg (320.24 KiB) Viewed 913 times
1880-New-AR-Crack.jpg
1880-New-AR-Crack.jpg (310.11 KiB) Viewed 913 times
1880-Collage-VAM-New-2.jpg
1880-Collage-VAM-New-2.jpg (319.4 KiB) Viewed 913 times

coinsupclose
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2022 5:45 am

Re: New 80-P Checkmark Variety

Post by coinsupclose » Sat Apr 08, 2023 11:26 pm

1880-V41-Obv.jpg
1880-V41-Obv.jpg (389.49 KiB) Viewed 913 times
1880-V41-Rev.jpg
1880-V41-Rev.jpg (417.75 KiB) Viewed 913 times
1880-Collage-V41.jpg
1880-Collage-V41.jpg (321.42 KiB) Viewed 913 times
1880-V41-Legs.jpg
1880-V41-Legs.jpg (323.19 KiB) Viewed 913 times
1880-V41-Wing-Tip-Crack.jpg
1880-V41-Wing-Tip-Crack.jpg (328.15 KiB) Viewed 913 times

coinsupclose
Posts: 13
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Re: New 80-P Checkmark Variety

Post by coinsupclose » Sat Apr 08, 2023 11:26 pm

1880-V41-Wing-Scratches.jpg
1880-V41-Wing-Scratches.jpg (320.96 KiB) Viewed 913 times
1880-V41-Lower-Wing-Doubling-Scratches.jpg
1880-V41-Lower-Wing-Doubling-Scratches.jpg (306.34 KiB) Viewed 913 times
1880-V41-Leaf-Scratches.jpg
1880-V41-Leaf-Scratches.jpg (328.04 KiB) Viewed 913 times

Brickie
Posts: 62
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2022 11:06 pm

Re: New 80-P Checkmark Variety

Post by Brickie » Sun Apr 09, 2023 12:33 pm

I might be able to help, I have some V41/41A's and the discovery V79. I'm pretty sure I have a early V41 with no die chips in the first "8" but I don't remember it having a different reverse die than my other V41's in my collection. I think you may have a different die pair. I will be able to check in a little while.

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vampicker
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Re: New 80-P Checkmark Variety

Post by vampicker » Sun Apr 09, 2023 1:51 pm

Since there's a VAM 41A and your example with a different reverse doesn't appear to have any of the obverse clashing, it makes sense it would have been an earlier use of the obverse. Markers for the reverse weren't noted in the listing, so there's a decent chance there are more examples of this new marriage in VAM 41 holders. Hard to say, this isn't something I've seen often
often the crusher of hopes and dreams

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messydesk
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Re: New 80-P Checkmark Variety

Post by messydesk » Sun Apr 09, 2023 2:17 pm

I just checked some pictures I have for VAM 41 that I took a long time ago for someone who was studying the date. The coin was circulated and most things to look at were on the obverse. It's pretty safe to say that there are multiple die pairs out there currently attributed as VAM 41. Looking forward to seeing if there's a conclusive connection with the VAM 79 reverse.
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Brickie
Posts: 62
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Re: New 80-P Checkmark Variety

Post by Brickie » Sun Apr 09, 2023 4:38 pm

OK, I dug out my V41/V41A's and looked at 5 V41's and 7 V41A's and they ALL used the same reverse die. Since we were discussing the V41 obverse die at the stage with no die chips in the first "8" of the date and I have only one example at that stage, that is what I used for the photographs. So here are the V41 photographs:

Here is part of the obverse (should be enough to verify it's a V41. They are very distinctive.)
v41-obv.jpg
v41-obv.jpg (239.37 KiB) Viewed 848 times
Here is crop of the date:
v41-obv-crop-date.jpg
v41-obv-crop-date.jpg (206.14 KiB) Viewed 848 times
Here are some the markers from the reverse:
v41-rev-crop-God.jpg
v41-rev-crop-God.jpg (214.25 KiB) Viewed 848 times
v41-rev-crop-LAR.jpg
v41-rev-crop-LAR.jpg (221.33 KiB) Viewed 848 times
v41-rev-crop-leftwingdiescratches.jpg
v41-rev-crop-leftwingdiescratches.jpg (209.9 KiB) Viewed 848 times

Brickie
Posts: 62
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2022 11:06 pm

Re: New 80-P Checkmark Variety

Post by Brickie » Sun Apr 09, 2023 4:39 pm

Here are a few more V41 reverse photos:
v41-rev-crop-leftwingtip.jpg
v41-rev-crop-leftwingtip.jpg (177.92 KiB) Viewed 848 times
v41-rev-crop-lowertailfeathers-arrows.jpg
v41-rev-crop-lowertailfeathers-arrows.jpg (212.02 KiB) Viewed 848 times
v41-rev-crop-uppertailfeathers.jpg
v41-rev-crop-uppertailfeathers.jpg (226.03 KiB) Viewed 848 times

Coming up next are the V79 photos from the discovery coin.

Brickie
Posts: 62
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2022 11:06 pm

Re: New 80-P Checkmark Variety

Post by Brickie » Sun Apr 09, 2023 4:42 pm

Ok, Here are a few photos from the V79 discovery coin reverse:
2023-04-09 12-23-23 (B,R5,S4).jpg
2023-04-09 12-23-23 (B,R5,S4).jpg (185.01 KiB) Viewed 848 times
V79disc-crop-arrows.jpg
V79disc-crop-arrows.jpg (170.08 KiB) Viewed 848 times
V79disc-crop-bow.jpg
V79disc-crop-bow.jpg (207.18 KiB) Viewed 848 times
V79disc-crop-LAR-crack.jpg
V79disc-crop-LAR-crack.jpg (202.48 KiB) Viewed 848 times
V79disc-crop-leftwing-diescratch.jpg
V79disc-crop-leftwing-diescratch.jpg (238.67 KiB) Viewed 848 times

Brickie
Posts: 62
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2022 11:06 pm

Re: New 80-P Checkmark Variety

Post by Brickie » Sun Apr 09, 2023 4:44 pm

V79disc-crop-uppertailfeathers.jpg
V79disc-crop-uppertailfeathers.jpg (244.85 KiB) Viewed 848 times
V79disc-crop-rightwing-diescratch.jpg
V79disc-crop-rightwing-diescratch.jpg (241.87 KiB) Viewed 848 times
V79disc-crop-leftwingtip-crack.jpg
V79disc-crop-leftwingtip-crack.jpg (250.94 KiB) Viewed 848 times

Brickie
Posts: 62
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2022 11:06 pm

Re: New 80-P Checkmark Variety

Post by Brickie » Sun Apr 09, 2023 4:47 pm

Michael, It sure looks like your coin has a V79 reverse to me! That is a really great find! V41's are pretty tough to find and I think your die pair is going to be very hard to find and I'm looking forward to finding one!

coinsupclose
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2022 5:45 am

Re: New 80-P Checkmark Variety

Post by coinsupclose » Sun Apr 09, 2023 10:05 pm

JR — Yea I haven’t found any evidence of clashing on the obverse. Makes sense. Thanks.

JB — Thanks for taking a look at the images you took of that 41. Agree that there are likely some floating around in V41 holders.

Brickie — Amazing photographs in record time. I’m floored. Thank you for doing that.

Yes as you said the V79 reverse does appear to be a match! Interesting that your V79 reverse lacks the chip at G whereas this new marriage has the chip at G.

Your EDS V41 without chipped 8 matches the reverse markers for my MDS V41 with chipped 8. Very helpful to know that this variant exists — nice discovery!

In putting together everyone’s observations it seems possible the sequence may have been V79 —> New marriage —> V41 —> V41A. Never sure about weird remarriages but fun to think about a potential sequence anyway.

Thanks to everyone for all of the help!

Brickie
Posts: 62
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2022 11:06 pm

Re: New 80-P Checkmark Variety

Post by Brickie » Sun Apr 09, 2023 10:26 pm

Thanks for posting your find! I'm always excited to find new die marriages. I'm hoping there is a neat die failure out there of this V79 reverse.

coinsupclose
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2022 5:45 am

Re: New 80-P Checkmark Variety

Post by coinsupclose » Mon Apr 10, 2023 9:20 pm

I agree that would be neat. Maybe something will pop up at some point -- you never know!

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