what's with this S? (1921-P)

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DHalladay
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what's with this S? (1921-P)

Post by DHalladay » Sun Mar 26, 2023 5:32 pm

I was looking through my 1921-P set for "Bean Bottom S" coins when I ran across this VAM 1BT Discovery Piece. I have no clue what is going on in the bottom loop of the 2nd S in STATES. Here are several photos, with the light source coming from slightly different angles and the ANACS holder slightly tilted to make the feature stand out better.

Might someone know what caused this? Hint hint @messydesk @vampicker

DH 1921-P VAM 1BT S-1.jpg
DH 1921-P VAM 1BT S-1.jpg (340.41 KiB) Viewed 1048 times
DH 1921-P VAM 1BT S-2.jpg
DH 1921-P VAM 1BT S-2.jpg (331.1 KiB) Viewed 1048 times
DH 1921-P VAM 1BT S-3.jpg
DH 1921-P VAM 1BT S-3.jpg (310.62 KiB) Viewed 1048 times
DH 1921-P VAM 1BT S-4.jpg
DH 1921-P VAM 1BT S-4.jpg (308.93 KiB) Viewed 1048 times
DH 1921-P VAM 1BT S-5.jpg
DH 1921-P VAM 1BT S-5.jpg (313.87 KiB) Viewed 1048 times
When in doubt... don't.

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UNCLE BINGO
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Re: what's with this S? (1921-P)

Post by UNCLE BINGO » Sun Mar 26, 2023 6:10 pm

I wanna guess its a crack in the plancet , knowing i could be wrong ... improper annealed silver . maybe ?????
" May your clashes be EDS , your breaks be LDS , and your wife not have PMS over your collecting habits! " ;)

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messydesk
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Re: what's with this S? (1921-P)

Post by messydesk » Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:10 pm

Until I got to the last picture, I was thinking "poke it with a stick." Looks like it could be a tiny bit of "Longacre doubling."
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

colwillys
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Re: what's with this S? (1921-P)

Post by colwillys » Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:13 pm

die shifting wile striking machine error .

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UNCLE BINGO
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Re: what's with this S? (1921-P)

Post by UNCLE BINGO » Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:22 pm

this just reminds me of @Geseas anomaly on his 78 . it looks like it extends up on to the S where it meets it on the lower right .. this is why i want to get Ziess to build a coin scope version, with big optics and no stacking required... Picture borrowed From Dennis ,, it's pariodilla , its a treasure hunter disease I cant help it :lol:
DH 1921-P VAM 1BT S-5 Dennis picture edit.jpg
DH 1921-P VAM 1BT S-5 Dennis picture edit.jpg (311.27 KiB) Viewed 1020 times
Last edited by UNCLE BINGO on Tue Mar 28, 2023 4:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
" May your clashes be EDS , your breaks be LDS , and your wife not have PMS over your collecting habits! " ;)

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UNCLE BINGO
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Re: what's with this S? (1921-P)

Post by UNCLE BINGO » Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:46 pm

and JB knows way more than me so he is probably right . but I would make sure with pictures, cause i like looking at clouds sometimes :popcorn:
" May your clashes be EDS , your breaks be LDS , and your wife not have PMS over your collecting habits! " ;)

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vampicker
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Re: what's with this S? (1921-P)

Post by vampicker » Sun Mar 26, 2023 11:44 pm

I think it's pushed metal from hard hits nearby
often the crusher of hopes and dreams

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UNCLE BINGO
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Re: what's with this S? (1921-P)

Post by UNCLE BINGO » Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:40 am

@DHalladay I will guarantee you I will concede and fold like a cheap card table :lol: I just keep seeing these strange spider cracks on a few Morgan Dollars that the only way my brain comprehends them, is to think of them much like flint knaps on a arrowhead . stuff that cracks but does not flake . brittle metal might do that . It's kind of crystalline in structure... if there is no continuation in the anomaly up the S , and I apologize for referring to it as a MM in the pervious posts its a S On a 1921-P . :popcorn: ... A true test of photography skills for you , G says its not to hard to stack them . Does the crack looking thing go up the S or not ?
" May your clashes be EDS , your breaks be LDS , and your wife not have PMS over your collecting habits! " ;)

Geseas
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Re: what's with this S? (1921-P)

Post by Geseas » Mon Mar 27, 2023 6:06 pm

UNCLE BINGO wrote:
Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:22 pm
this just reminds me of @Geseas anomaly on his 78 . it looks like it extends up on to the MM where it meets it on the lower right .. this is why i want to get Ziess to build a coin scope version, with big optics and no stacking required... Picture borrowed From Dennis ,, it's pariodilla , its a treasure hunter disease I cant help it :lol: DH 1921-P VAM 1BT S-5 Dennis picture edit.jpg
Great visual memory you have, Bob. I agree, It sure seems to be similar to me; but on a different scale.

Both have a raised plateau that seems to be part of the same field below. It reminds me of photographs of Geographical fault lines in Calif. A displaced field on a radial die crack may be similar...

I am going to guess the Photoshop App. can produce/manipulate those (focus) stacked images also. The camera I use does it with a push of a button, as long as you have enough light available.

Thanks for all your shared insights!

RogerB
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Re: what's with this S? (1921-P)

Post by RogerB » Mon Mar 27, 2023 8:41 pm

The photo appears to show die distortion caused by local stress during manufacture. This is possibly an early strike from a new rev die before metal movement blurred the crystal boundary defect.

(It could also be a tuna salad on rye, with a pickle on the side.)
Last edited by RogerB on Mon Mar 27, 2023 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

iwillbenice
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Re: what's with this S? (1921-P)

Post by iwillbenice » Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:15 pm

Another form of lamination.

DHalladay
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Re: what's with this S? (1921-P)

Post by DHalladay » Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:40 pm

Just to repeat from my initial post in this thread, all of my photos are the 2nd S in STATES on a 1921-P.
When in doubt... don't.

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UNCLE BINGO
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Re: what's with this S? (1921-P)

Post by UNCLE BINGO » Mon Mar 27, 2023 11:20 pm

DHalladay wrote:
Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:40 pm
Just to repeat from my initial post in this thread, all of my photos are the 2nd S in STATES on a 1921-P.
That's my bad I called it a MM by accident,, sorry about that ....
" May your clashes be EDS , your breaks be LDS , and your wife not have PMS over your collecting habits! " ;)

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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: what's with this S? (1921-P)

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Tue Mar 28, 2023 6:53 pm

Just a guess, but what about an occluded gas bubble that got squeezed out under the S in the direction of planchet metal flow? Or, for some reason a thicker planchet in that area that did the same thing? Just ideas.

Geseas
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Re: what's with this S? (1921-P)

Post by Geseas » Thu Mar 30, 2023 5:38 pm

:idea:

I am compelled to share with you just a few of the [places] I have visited because of this thread. This is gleaned from a search of my [history]:
http://numissociety.com/content.php?135 ... discussion

https://www.google.com/search?q=metal+m ... e&ie=UTF-8

https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins ... -die-.html

https://www.mindat.org/paleo_loc.php?id=82753
Last edited by Geseas on Fri Mar 31, 2023 5:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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alefzero
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Re: what's with this S? (1921-P)

Post by alefzero » Thu Mar 30, 2023 6:01 pm

Well, opening this thread was a let down, Dennis. I thought you had finally capitulated and started on 1921-S Morgans too.

Geseas
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Re: what's with this S? (1921-P)

Post by Geseas » Thu Mar 30, 2023 6:21 pm

@alefzero :)

I just couldn't let this slide beneath without a request for a few more photographs from Dennis..

Is this a die scratch?
DH.jpeg
DH.jpeg (577.36 KiB) Viewed 780 times
I did have a question also:

What are the differences between MM and any other device once it is on the working die?

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Albannach
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Re: what's with this S? (1921-P)

Post by Albannach » Thu Mar 30, 2023 9:26 pm

I see "Flat and Shelf like", but not your typical MPD in shape.
Curious.
My first thought is very light grease filled, based on directionality on the "upper" edges...Cool regardless, I like it.

I want everyone to stay focussed on what is 10x visible here. Lets not pick pepper out of fly shit quite yet...except of course for the line in TA... :o

I totally agree with Roger, it's a very Early punch state, the S is also legally tripled :lol: , whether you see it @ 10x or not I will wait for an answer on please.

Can I see the Full rev. please

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UNCLE BINGO
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Re: what's with this S? (1921-P)

Post by UNCLE BINGO » Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:29 pm

Geseas wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2023 5:38 pm
:idea:

I am compelled to share with you a few of the [places] I have visited because of this thread. This is gleaned from a search of my [history]:

https://www.google.com/search?q=metal+m ... e&ie=UTF-8

https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins ... -die-.html

https://www.mindat.org/paleo_loc.php?id=82753
Hi G This one is better , there is an extremely long story with myself and that particular misspelled word .... The secret is in the context , but this is not the place for such a thing .https://www.google.com/search?q=pareido ... e&ie=UTF-8
" May your clashes be EDS , your breaks be LDS , and your wife not have PMS over your collecting habits! " ;)

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