1921 B over S in "PLURIBUS"

General discussion board about VAMs, but no buy/sell offers
Forum rules
All posts to this forum must abide by the posting rules. Continued posting to any VAMWorld forum constitutes acceptance of the rules.
Cestor01
Posts: 39
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2023 5:41 pm

1921 B over S in "PLURIBUS"

Post by Cestor01 » Fri Mar 17, 2023 3:13 pm

I have a 1921 with an S over the B in PLURIBUS. It is very clear in the photo, although it is hard to see with a loop, especially because it is encapsulated, but it is possible to make it out. I believe what probably happened was that an "S" was accidentally engraved, possibly in the hub, and then the correct B was engraved leaving a slightly raised S over the B. The LUR also appear to be re-engraved slightly to the right of previous, as well as the ONE D on the Reverse, but this is only noticeable in the photos, I cannot make out any detail of that on the coin. Any thoughts?
Attachments
1921MorganSoverBclashrev.jpg
1921MorganSoverBclashrev.jpg (122.94 KiB) Viewed 734 times
1921MorganSoverBclashobv.jpg.jpg
1921MorganSoverBclashobv.jpg.jpg (118.57 KiB) Viewed 734 times

RogerB
Posts: 1033
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:30 pm

Re: 1921 B over S in "PLURIBUS"

Post by RogerB » Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:11 pm

Nope.
What you "see" is not there; and your conjecture about manufacture does not match US Mint die production processes.

Sorry. It's a pleasant MS63-64 dollar. :)

User avatar
impairedsquirrel
Posts: 939
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 2:42 pm
Location: Happy Valley, USA

Re: 1921 B over S in "PLURIBUS"

Post by impairedsquirrel » Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:31 pm

It is bizarre looking, but also either photoshopped or an optical illusion. As Roger said, not feasible during the production process.
I go totally NUTS for WOW! VAMs!! Or is that from WOW! VAMs?

Cestor01
Posts: 39
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2023 5:41 pm

Re: 1921 B over S in "PLURIBUS"

Post by Cestor01 » Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:54 pm

It is definitely 100% not photoshopped, and is absolutely 100% there. I may be wrong about how it occurred, but there is no doubt that it is present. I did expect some disagreement on how it occurred, but am shocked that I am being accused of faking it!

User avatar
UNCLE BINGO
Posts: 915
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2022 11:41 pm

Re: 1921 B over S in "PLURIBUS"

Post by UNCLE BINGO » Fri Mar 17, 2023 7:31 pm

I tried for a second to find some clash that could have done that , but lack the transfer tool for a 1921 , probably not feasible either , but welcome to the forum just the same .
Proud winner of Worst new Vammer of the year :lol:

MarkyB
Posts: 158
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:50 pm
Location: Nebraska

Re: 1921 B over S in "PLURIBUS"

Post by MarkyB » Fri Mar 17, 2023 8:27 pm

The effects I think I can make out around LUR and ONE D can be seen on other coins. I don't know how it happens or what its called but its fairly common. It's like the letter slid a few millimeters. The B over S thing you described can't be explained. A closeup might help. Otherwise you'd need to get it into the hands of an expert. Perhaps a local coin dealer might help.

User avatar
messydesk
Site Admin
Posts: 3822
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 1:57 am

Re: 1921 B over S in "PLURIBUS"

Post by messydesk » Fri Mar 17, 2023 8:51 pm

I can't comment as to how it became to be what you see without seeing a close-up picture or the coin in hand.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

User avatar
impairedsquirrel
Posts: 939
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 2:42 pm
Location: Happy Valley, USA

Re: 1921 B over S in "PLURIBUS"

Post by impairedsquirrel » Sat Mar 18, 2023 5:13 am

Cestor01 wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:54 pm
It is definitely 100% not photoshopped, and is absolutely 100% there. I may be wrong about how it occurred, but there is no doubt that it is present. I did expect some disagreement on how it occurred, but am shocked that I am being accused of faking it!
No one was specifically accusing you of faking it, just saying that what it looks like and what you describe can't be a real, natural feature of the coin...
Also, you mention that you can't pick it up well with a loupe, so that leads me to believe it is an optical illusion caused by lighting angles.
I go totally NUTS for WOW! VAMs!! Or is that from WOW! VAMs?

Cestor01
Posts: 39
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2023 5:41 pm

Re: 1921 B over S in "PLURIBUS"

Post by Cestor01 » Sat Mar 18, 2023 4:44 pm

By the way, the effect of the S appearing over the B is caused by the tops of the letters being shiny, probably by being rubbed as all the high points of the coin are. It would probably not be possible to see the S if it was not for that rubbing, and it most likely would not show up in the photo. So the S is obviously caused by a deeper part of the die than is the B. It is clearly part of the process of engraving the die. I just can't figure out how that would have happened. It is also possible by magnification of the coin to make out the serifs of the S, so it is clearly the same design of S that is used elsewhere on the coin. I have examined other 1921 Morgans I have, not that it is a very large sample, but I do not see anything else approaching that.

RogerB
Posts: 1033
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:30 pm

Re: 1921 B over S in "PLURIBUS"

Post by RogerB » Sat Mar 18, 2023 5:19 pm

In 1921 working dies were made from hubs. This required 5 to 7 squeezes in a medal press which accounts for occasional doubled or tripled dies. The only design element manually entered was the mintmark.

You will need at least two identical examples to begin to establish plausibility for anything other than common pareidolia.

VamHelsing
Posts: 965
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:14 pm
Location: Oregon

Re: 1921 B over S in "PLURIBUS"

Post by VamHelsing » Sat Mar 18, 2023 5:42 pm

I agree with Roger.

DHalladay
Posts: 3078
Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 4:38 pm
Location: Boise, ID area

Re: 1921 B over S in "PLURIBUS"

Post by DHalladay » Sat Mar 18, 2023 5:49 pm

So do I. (And I had to look up pareidolia. Neat word.)
When in doubt... don't.

Ghost
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:31 am

Re: 1921 B over S in "PLURIBUS"

Post by Ghost » Sat Mar 18, 2023 6:15 pm

Just another opinion here:
From what I am seeing through photo enhancements, it appears to possibly be a combination of shadowing and post mint damage, again just an opinion. I know at times some responses seem harsh to the point and for the novice VAMer's it can make you feel like you should have known better and that can make some combative, you are here to learn, everyone knows if you knew the answer you would not have asked. Some, not all of the experienced VAMer's must remember they were once novices too, and needed patience from their teachers to learn the knowledge they now hold. This hobby is very interesting, very fun, and sometimes requires a lot of detective work, with that said, patience is also required on your part. Patience is needed from both the teachers and the students for anyone to learn anything and become successful.
Stick with it, have fun, and enjoy the ups and downs. Good luck!
043504587415-vybkjy.jpg
043504587415-vybkjy.jpg (91.36 KiB) Viewed 595 times

User avatar
Albannach
Posts: 214
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:09 pm

Re: 1921 B over S in "PLURIBUS"

Post by Albannach » Sat Mar 18, 2023 6:26 pm

Need 10 or 20x scope shot or with a decent camera you can do macro shot for us...

It could be PMD or possibly grease filled, from what i see. Lack of additional clashing is a non starter.

User avatar
vampicker
Posts: 2169
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:48 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: 1921 B over S in "PLURIBUS"

Post by vampicker » Sat Mar 18, 2023 8:25 pm

Is the B at normal relief or is part of it lower than the letters on either side?

Is the thing that looks like an S raised or incuse?
often the crusher of hopes and dreams

RogerB
Posts: 1033
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:30 pm

Re: 1921 B over S in "PLURIBUS"

Post by RogerB » Sat Mar 18, 2023 11:45 pm

Per Ghost's post....

Here’s a cropped and enlarged version of “URBIS.” Notice that all of the letters are misshapen and distorted to a greater or lesser degree.
Image1.jpg
Image1.jpg (48.22 KiB) Viewed 565 times
At left, the U has no serifs at upper left; the R has a wheat stem growing from bottom left and right leg is distorted – could this really be a letter P with a die break, or…is it the Cyrillic letter Р which is the “R-sound” in English? The central I is squished and parts spread left and right – it must be double punched off center. The subject letter B with an S punched over it, is revealed to be neither – it is, I fact, the Cyrillic letter Ƃ so it’s obvious that Russian Commies had infiltrated the Philadelphia Mint !

Now for something more serious. While researching the Saint-Gaudens DE book, I found a coin with a clear doubled mintmark that had never been reported. I started looking at other photos of the same lot. All were the same. I started writing the descriptions and making rotation angle measurements. I asked the auction company for a detail photo even though it doubled mintmark was sharp and clear. When the new photos came, the doubling was gone -- not a trace. In handling, the coin had shifted slightly in its holder. The "clear doubled mintmark" was created by distortions in the clear plastic holder. I found others over time. Just an anecdote to consider.

Cestor01
Posts: 39
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2023 5:41 pm

Re: 1921 B over S in "PLURIBUS"

Post by Cestor01 » Sun Mar 19, 2023 12:15 am

Ghost, I am not really a novice. I know you guys do not know me, but I have been collecting coins for more than 50 years. I do not consider myself a "VAMer", I am certainly not a professional, but I have been looking at your site for about 15 years (although I got married and kind of backed off 9 years ago). I also used to correspond fairly frequently with JT Stanton, and he has examined several varieties that I have discovered in my personal collection. Sadly, he passed away several years ago. I would have addressed this with him had he still been with us. (I believe it is him that got me directed to this site in the first place).

Cestor01
Posts: 39
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2023 5:41 pm

Re: 1921 B over S in "PLURIBUS"

Post by Cestor01 » Sun Mar 19, 2023 12:38 am

Vampicker: The B is at regular relief, although a small part next to the vertical left line on the bottom appears to be missing from a filled die or some effect. The rest of it appears normal. I just thought you guys might have some insight as to how this could have occurred. Yes, "pareidolia" occurred to me, but I have examined the coin many times. And, yes, I suppose that is still an option, but every time I examine the coin, it leaves no doubt that the effect is there, it is an "S", is of the style used on Morgan Dollars. I considered that the effect could be a result of a clash with the reverse of another coin. The B in PLURIBUS is at approximately the same location as the second S in STATES on the reverse. But that would have had to be a significant impact, straight down, and The S would have had to be somewhat raised for this to take effect. All the raised surfaces of the coin appear to have been rubbed, probably from contact with other coins, but obviously not enough to affect the grade of the coin much. The photo has not been retouched, although it was taken by an electronic camera, which is probably why the effect is so clear.

Cestor01
Posts: 39
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2023 5:41 pm

Re: 1921 B over S in "PLURIBUS"

Post by Cestor01 » Sun Mar 19, 2023 12:57 am

Roger B: I can see the effects that you refer to on the other letters, and I noted them in my original post, but as I said, I cannot see anything on inspection of the coin. It is probably an effect of the photographic process, although I know from prior photos that the camera sometimes sees things the eye cannot (I also would not have noticed this if it was not for the photo, which is where I first caught it). The "wheat stem" or whatever you called it next to the R is an oil smudge. Nothing raised or incuse there. I put the photo in because I cannot hand you the coin. As I stated, it is visible on examination, appears to be a raised effect on the B, which would mean it would have to be a deeper part on the die. However, my old eyes do deceive me at times. But if I was not fairly certain that the effect was present on the coin, or if I could explain how it occurred, I would not have asked for help. I do this only as a hobby for my own enjoyment.

keilg1
Posts: 814
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:36 pm
Location: Nottingham, UK

Re: 1921 B over S in "PLURIBUS"

Post by keilg1 » Sun Mar 19, 2023 7:53 am

Without clear pictures, and none have been provided, the issue will remain not just in the possible realm of pareidolia (and being a neuroscientist by training, I love this being brought into the discussion!) but myth...

Everything we know about the minting process says this is highly unlikely to be what it appears. This is similar to earlier comments - not a statement about you, @Cestor01, but the coin at hand.

Please provide clear pictures because the previous ones haven't been helpful.

Looking forward to seeing them,

Post Reply