1921 B over S in "PLURIBUS"

[Cestor01]

[/quote]
"I don't care what I hear" is almost a game-ender for me but I suspect this was an old habit of reacting to what was happening - if you didn't truly care you wouldn't be asking for input.

[/quote]

Yes, "there is nothing there" is a game ender for me. I have shown this to a half dozen people and they all see it without even having to squint. Like I said, I came here to ask questions, and I did that. I figured out what is going on with this coin. This isn't enjoyable for me any more. I wanted to make a contribution, I volunteered to have someone look at the coin. You don't want to see it, don't. It is clear as the nose on my face (I know, "What nose? I don't see a nose".)

[ljs123]

If you really want the truth about this coin, send it to JB (aka; messydesk).
JB @messydesk and JR @vampicker are the two that decided what VAM any given coin is listed as. They are THE Morgan authorities. Leroy Van Allen turned the Morgan dollars over to them. JR is the attribution specialist at ANACS, and JB is the attribution specialist at VSS. They both are true coin professionals. They have seen lots of things like this. Because your coin is already slabbed, I thought JB would be the easiest and less expensive way to get the real answer. If you are willing to listen. JB would attribute the VAM and tell you it is a S/B or just a plain old B with post mint damage.

You said you volunteered to let someone look at the coin. Great, then send it to JB.

Let me know, I can post a link to this thread for VSS and you can send it to JB.

Please take another breath and understand we are trying to help you.
We have seen this sort of thing time and time again.
Like I said, the mind is a funny thing. Once you think you see something, it is very hard for your brain to see that same thing a different way. It takes a flexible mind and attitude to be willing to seek the truth.
Try to be open to the truth about this coin.
Best wishes

[Cestor01]

If you really want the truth about this coin, send it to JB (aka; messydesk)....

We have seen this sort of thing time and time again.
Like I said, the mind is a funny thing. Once you think you see something, it is very hard for your brain to see that same thing a different way. It takes a flexible mind and attitude to be willing to seek the truth.

I already messaged the messydesk guy, he didn't respond. As I said, I have gotten the answers I needed, I only do this as a hobby. The overlays, I think provided by Ghost, were very helpful. As for seeing what is in my mind, I have shown this coin to a half dozen people, didn't tell them what I saw, and they all immediately saw the same thing. Sometimes people who spend too much time looking at trees can no longer see the forest. I only posted the images after I got my answers in case anyone else was interested in looking at them. I am willing to let anyone look at the coin themselves if they wish. Thank you to everyone for their help.

[keilg1]

Glad to have helped. I'd echo the suggestion to try and make this official. Showing it to others and having them give a response (especially when they're likely not experts in varieties of Morgans...) leads to confusion and, worse, the belief that it's correct information. I'm not saying this might not turn out to be a wickely interesting story, but if other people begin to think this is a validated story when it's not, it'll frustrate people who then try and go forward based on that flawed understanding.

If you really want to help them while you help yourself - and help us understand the coin - sending it in for verification is an absolute.

I personally hope you do and would ask you to seriously consider it.

Warmest regards,

[impairedsquirrel]

After viewing the close-ups I’m 100% positive your eyes are playing a cruel joke on you. It is a regular ol’ B with a combination of contact and toning. Nothing more, nothing less, sorry.

[messydesk]

If you really want the truth about this coin, send it to JB (aka; messydesk)....

We have seen this sort of thing time and time again.
Like I said, the mind is a funny thing. Once you think you see something, it is very hard for your brain to see that same thing a different way. It takes a flexible mind and attitude to be willing to seek the truth.

I already messaged the messydesk guy, he didn't respond. ...

I responded to your message on March 18 at 12:28 am CT, two hours after you sent me your message.

[Cestor01]

[/quote]

I already messaged the messydesk guy, he didn't respond. ...
[/quote]
I responded to your message on March 18 at 12:28 am CT, two hours after you sent me your message.
[/quote]

Sorry, yes, you did respond to that. I messaged you again and offered to let you look at the coin. I did not get a response to that. I could have messed up with sending that message.

[Cestor01]

After viewing the close-ups I’m 100% positive your eyes are playing a cruel joke on you. It is a regular ol’ B with a combination of contact and toning. Nothing more, nothing less, sorry.

That same joke was played on every person who has personally examined this coin. That being said, pareidolia has been mentioned, and people tend to see the same thing with that effect. However, compared to the overlays posted by someone earlier (I believe it was Ghost), it is an EXACT match. The areas that would have the S are raised, there are horizontal file lines that demonstrate an attempt to remove the S, probably from the Master Hub as they began engraving from the Galvano. The areas that would not have an S as demonstrated by the overlays are lower. It is an exact, perfect match.

In modern die production, that I believe began in the 1980s, there are grooves to line up the hubs and dies. I believe there was probably something similar when this hub was produced, someone realized it was not aligned properly, and they filed the hub back down to start over, but a slight S was still barely present. When the hub was re-aligned, the S was in the location of the B, and it was engraved over.

Regardless, although this is apparently an unknown thing, this would not represent a new VAM because this would have to be on the Master Hub, as there is no other part of the process that could produce this effect. Being on the Master Hub, this would affect dozens, if not hundreds, of VAMs. It is probably on thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of coins. I have since looked at other 1921 Morgan coins and see this effect partially present on some. I believe I noticed this because this appears to be an early die state, and may be more prominent.

Anyone is welcome to disagree. Anyone is welcome to examine the coin for themselves. As for me, I have my answers, and I do not mind the disagreement, although I have gotten frustrated because it is so obvious, and some of the comments have been kind of snarky - for example, saying, "I don't see that", is different from, "your eyes are playing a cruel joke", etc.). Thank you for your comments. My efforts now are to satisfy anyone's questions that remain or provide additional photos if someone wishes to see them, but I know what I needed to. Thank again.

[messydesk]

Sorry, yes, you did respond to that. I messaged you again and offered to let you look at the coin. I did not get a response to that. I could have messed up with sending that message.

I never received a second message.

[VamHelsing]

I'm going to ask, and I mean this sincerely. Who's word are you willing to accept on this coin?

[lured_in_again]

Interesting thread.... my 2 cents worth on the coin. If you were to eliminate the shiny areas of rub on the high points of the lettering (not just the B, but other lettering as well... noting rub especially on the R of PLURIBUS, as well as on the wheat area) Eliminate that and there appears to be very little of note, perhaps a ding or 2 from bag hits.

[Albannach]

I wasn't gonna come back in but...

I think exploring your hypothesis, in all venues and having discussions with fellow hobbiest is great.

You have a Hypothesis right now
In order for your to prove your hypothesis a Theory, you must have proof (scientific method).
You require methodical Study to turn Hypothesis into Theory and Theory into Fact.

It would be great to see a study of this phenomenon. Study, in particular Morgan Dollar Rev. 21 Die Study. Remember ALL dies were created in the same place...they were worked and modified mostly onsite.

So, you need more coins. Coins, coins, coins...coins
Assemble enough coins, exhibiting the same traits, fitting your criteria and bring your Theory back to this venue.

Show multiple examples as proof and you will likely get a different response.

[RogerB]

Are folks merely searching for something to argue about? The owner stated what he thinks and why. Others have stated their opinions based upon a few photos. Rather than continue to irritate others, the owner should send the coin to a knowledgeable third party for an independent opinion. (The members named are excellent choices.)

If that is inconclusive, then have it examined in a good Optical 3D Profilometer which will produce a completely objective dataset.

[vampicker]

As already suggested, determining which VAM this is would help, With your new scope, try to capture some images of the 'scribble zone'. This spot is the area in the upper tailfeathers just inside the eagle's right (viewer's left) leg.

[vamsterdam]

While your theory is “possible”, i see nothing to prove your point. An S over a B should leave other evidence, such as other letters, or design elements. I do have a bolivian doubled die where an obverse die was hubbed into an unfinished reverse die. There reverse die was ground down to remove “republica” but plenty of evidence was there for me to figure out what happened. And i found a number of them after years of research. It would be extremely difficult to only leave evidence of a b/s. There would be other design elements at play, and there would be serious evidence of grinding, filing, and polishing to remove it(as there is on my bolivian pieces). I see nothing more than contact marks at this juncture. Even with digital microscope photos. My specialties are doubled dies and vams(with others such as cameos, toning, and mechanical errors). I’ve examined more coins than i can count, probably in the millions. And there are many people on here who are very, very sharp, and I don’t think you will find better anywhere. People that underestimate die manufacturing, coinage processes, circulation damage, toning and shadow effects, how errors, and alterations are made, you name it about numismatics, this is a sharp group. I think you need to have a little more open mind about what you are seeing.

[Tekkie1]

What Brian said.

The end all to this situation would be to simply send it to JR, (ANACS) and squash this bug. Simple as that.

The proverbial ball is in your court.
Good luck with it.

[vamsterdam]

I don’t know how “underestimate” ended up in my paragraph. Understand maybe, but not underestimate. What state are you in? I could examine your t at a show or f you are afraid to have an t examined by john roberts or john baumgart. I do shows all over the country. 3-6 shows a month.