1886VAM?

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lhnumis1
Posts: 175
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:40 pm

1886VAM?

Post by lhnumis1 » Thu Mar 16, 2023 2:31 am

Does anyone have an example of this 1886? I refer to it as the ‘square root with gouge’. Additional images in follow-up post.
DOLLAR1886LOT434OBV.jpg
Obverse
DOLLAR1886LOT434OBV.jpg (57.39 KiB) Viewed 259 times
DOLLAR1886LOT434OBV2.jpg
1 set at right of normal
DOLLAR1886LOT434OBV2.jpg (52.5 KiB) Viewed 259 times
DOLLAR1886LOT434OBV3.jpg
6 doubled at top right; also, top loop filled completely with raised horizontal lines
DOLLAR1886LOT434OBV3.jpg (32.36 KiB) Viewed 259 times
DOLLAR1886LOT434OBV4.jpg
Sqiare root:red arrows, gouge:yellow arrows adjacent on neck
DOLLAR1886LOT434OBV4.jpg (41.43 KiB) Viewed 259 times
DOLLAR1886LOT434OBV5.jpg
Gouge highlighted in yellow ellipse
DOLLAR1886LOT434OBV5.jpg (38.98 KiB) Viewed 259 times

lhnumis1
Posts: 175
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:40 pm

Re: 1886VAM?

Post by lhnumis1 » Thu Mar 16, 2023 2:55 am

Below find additional images of this same 1886.
DOLLAR1886LOT434OBV6.jpg
Square root-red ellipse, gouge-yellow ellipse.
DOLLAR1886LOT434OBV6.jpg (21.86 KiB) Viewed 254 times
DOLLAR1886LOT434OBV7.jpg
Strong vertical raised line at left end of liberty cap ribbon.
DOLLAR1886LOT434OBV7.jpg (23.15 KiB) Viewed 254 times
DOLLAR1886LOT434REV.jpg
Reverse
DOLLAR1886LOT434REV.jpg (66.04 KiB) Viewed 254 times
DOLLAR1886LOT434REV2.jpg
Eagle eye and nostril bases filled with fine raised horizontal lines.
DOLLAR1886LOT434REV2.jpg (54.1 KiB) Viewed 254 times

blaircountycoin
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2022 9:57 pm

Re: 1886VAM?

Post by blaircountycoin » Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:06 am

Take a close look at VAM 1P. It has lines in the upper loop of 6.

keilg1
Posts: 814
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:36 pm
Location: Nottingham, UK

Re: 1886VAM?

Post by keilg1 » Thu Mar 16, 2023 7:24 am

One near and dear to my heart.

I'll need to pull it out of storage to verify but the FCP of the obverse does look to have the same thing - that I and LVA might have missed...

Other PUP pictures that might help are below. LVA did not include these so they're unofficial but they do come from the discovery coin. If you see these, you've got what I believe is only the second reported 1P. Not that they're likely that rare, but wouldn't that be nice if they were?!
1886P Vam-1P DC POPs ribbon bow GR.jpg
1886P Vam-1P DC POPs ribbon bow GR.jpg (84.84 KiB) Viewed 243 times
1886P Vam-1P DC PUP field line olive branch tip GR.jpg
1886P Vam-1P DC PUP field line olive branch tip GR.jpg (105.5 KiB) Viewed 243 times
1886P Vam-1P DC Arrow shafts GR.jpg
1886P Vam-1P DC Arrow shafts GR.jpg (101.02 KiB) Viewed 243 times

lhnumis1
Posts: 175
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:40 pm

Re: 1886VAM?

Post by lhnumis1 » Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:26 pm

Below find additional images; tow more images in following post:
It appears that the void to the right of ribbon of the CIH does not match V1P.
It appears the wing-neck void of the CIH does not match the wing-neck void of V1P.
The TY lines of LIBERTY in the V1P are absent in the CIH, but it does exhibit a strong line at the upper left serif of the ‘I’ in LIBERTY.
Also absent in the CIH, is the die scratch through the olive branch present in V1P.
The lines below the Phrygian cap fold in the CIH do not match those of V1P.
Lastly- In examining the date it appears that VAM1P is set at a ‘normal’ ~2.5, whereas the CIH is set right of normal at ~2.8.
DOLLAR1886LOT434OBV10.jpg
Strong line in 'i of LIBERTY'.
DOLLAR1886LOT434OBV10.jpg (10.59 KiB) Viewed 230 times
DOLLAR1886LOT434OBV13.jpg
Lines below Phrygian cap fold.
DOLLAR1886LOT434OBV13.jpg (16.81 KiB) Viewed 230 times
DOLLAR1886LOT434REV3.jpg
Lines etc., in win-neck gap.
DOLLAR1886LOT434REV3.jpg (62.79 KiB) Viewed 230 times
DOLLAR1886LOT434REV4.jpg
Lines etc., in void right of the ribbon.
DOLLAR1886LOT434REV4.jpg (40.24 KiB) Viewed 230 times

lhnumis1
Posts: 175
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:40 pm

Re: 1886VAM?

Post by lhnumis1 » Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:36 pm

Below find two additional images for comparison...
DOLLAR1886LOT434OBV2.jpg
Date setting of Coin In Hand
DOLLAR1886LOT434OBV2.jpg (52.5 KiB) Viewed 229 times
1886P_VAM-1P_full_obv_GR (1).jpg
Date setting of VAM 1P
1886P_VAM-1P_full_obv_GR (1).jpg (181.03 KiB) Viewed 229 times

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andywoj00
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Re: 1886VAM?

Post by andywoj00 » Thu Mar 16, 2023 6:34 pm

Hard to tell in the pics....Maybe V27 or V27A? Being a Normal Right date with that diagonal polish line in the I of Liberty points towards the V27.
However.....
V27 was delisted saying it was the same as V29. V29 is a Normal Left Date.
V27A was delisted as a dupe of V19, which is a Normal Right date.

blaircountycoin
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2022 9:57 pm

Re: 1886VAM?

Post by blaircountycoin » Thu Mar 16, 2023 6:51 pm

Sorry. Just trying to help. The 1P was the only one that mentioned lines in top of 6 loop.

lhnumis1
Posts: 175
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:40 pm

Re: 1886VAM?

Post by lhnumis1 » Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:28 pm

Thanks to blaircountycoin, keilg1 and andywoj00 for reponding...it is much appreciated. I think I have a new VAM and at the moment the images seem to hold up…but that may change in a moment should images be supplied that match the CIH.
Here are several additional images that the CIH exhibits.
DOLLAR1886LOT434OBV11.jpg
Slight doubling at top of liberty cap, right side
DOLLAR1886LOT434OBV11.jpg (26.67 KiB) Viewed 209 times
DOLLAR1886LOT434OBV12.jpg
Slight doubling at top of liberty cap, left side.
Doubling is absent in the middle.
DOLLAR1886LOT434OBV12.jpg (17.3 KiB) Viewed 209 times

keilg1
Posts: 814
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Location: Nottingham, UK

Re: 1886VAM?

Post by keilg1 » Sat Mar 18, 2023 12:31 pm

Yup, definitely not the 1P as I don't see anything on the neck of the DC. This feature is fascinting to me, beyond it looking like a square root. It might have been PMD from a long time ago that then got worn down to make it look like a die gouge because I've not seen any die gouge go one direction, turn 90 degrees, then 45degrees, then angle again...

I could be wrong and am, thus, interested in what you find out!

lhnumis1
Posts: 175
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:40 pm

Re: 1886VAM?

Post by lhnumis1 » Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:07 pm

When examining this coin the third time around…I was looking for evidence of a clash mark by the neck-jaw junction. I rotated the coin 90° & a discontinuity caught my attention. When seeing it, I had difficulty believing what I saw.

First…the coin appears to me to be an MS63…less charitably MS62. Next, original mint frost and full cartwheel effect is evident. Contact marks are evident (and expected), but evidence of loss of luster due to friction (wear) is not evident. The entire ‘Square root” is fully frosted except for a single bright contact mark at the bottom of the ‘vee’.

This appears to mean that, whatever it is, it was in the die at the mint prior to strike and thus not PMD. My analysis may of course be incorrect…but seems logically right to me. My conclusion…a whimsy done by a mint employee in an idle moment.

I can also explain it as purely accidental…die dropped onto some object that imprinted the “square root”. Die gouges, such as the one adjacent to the “square root” are rather common and need no further explanation. Perhaps other explanations may prove more palatable.

Thanks keilg1 for sharing your insight and taking the time to reply.

lhnumis1
Posts: 175
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:40 pm

Re: 1886VAM?

Post by lhnumis1 » Sun Mar 19, 2023 4:29 am

Two additional images of reverse markers exhibited by the CIH.
DOLLAR1886LOT434REV5.jpg
Small die gouge on 5th inner feather from the base, of the eagles left wing.
DOLLAR1886LOT434REV5.jpg (25.43 KiB) Viewed 166 times
DOLLAR1886LOT434REV6.jpg
vertical die scratch between the eagle's breast feathers and the innermost feathers of the right wing.
DOLLAR1886LOT434REV6.jpg (14.63 KiB) Viewed 166 times

keilg1
Posts: 814
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:36 pm
Location: Nottingham, UK

Re: 1886VAM?

Post by keilg1 » Sun Mar 19, 2023 8:23 am

Nice additional pictures. Sorry to add nothing really connecting with what I know. I'll hope those more experienced can take over and help guide you to a final determination.

Thanks for allowing me to participate - I keep learning as I go along.

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