Need 83-O Expert... VAM-23B With N Neck Transfer...? New pics.

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TheYokel
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Need 83-O Expert... VAM-23B With N Neck Transfer...? New pics.

Post by TheYokel » Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:28 am

Just curious if this is normal on a VAM-22A since i didn't see anything noted about it?

1883-O VAM-22A:
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I only noticed it through the holder when I went to check the ear for the 36A die chip...

...is this normal to see once in a while?...
Last edited by TheYokel on Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:59 am, edited 3 times in total.
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twohawks
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Re: Need 83-O Expert... VAM-22A With Extremely Rusted Die...?

Post by twohawks » Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:51 pm

This coin is not a VAM-22a or even a VAM-22. If this was a VAM 22a you would be able to see the clashed E with reading glasses
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dave700x
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Re: Need 83-O Expert... VAM-22A With Extremely Rusted Die...?

Post by dave700x » Sat Nov 24, 2018 3:33 pm

Try VAM-23B.
1883-O nut

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TheYokel
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Re: Need 83-O Expert... VAM-22A With Extremely Rusted Die...?

Post by TheYokel » Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:01 pm

dave700x wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 3:33 pm
Try VAM-23B.
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The line in the wing says 23B, thank you sir :)

The listing says 23B doesn't come with any letter transfer...

This is my wing and motto and the distance the N should be from the neck clash...
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And this is my neck...
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And what looks like a tiny bit of a letter under the leg of the "I"...
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Whatcha think?...
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TheYokel
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Re: Need 83-O Expert... VAM-22A With Extremely Rusted Die...?

Post by TheYokel » Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:09 pm

And one thing i don't understand about 23B...

It says the pitting gets progressively heavier later in the die stage...

And it says the wing line gets weaker in later die stages...

This one has a very prominent wing gouge and extreeeeeemely heavy pitting..

One of those timelines up top isn't right. Either the gouge got worse... Or the pitting got progressively lighter not heavier... Otherwise both the extreme pitting and deep gouge wouldn't be on the same coin?

Edit: few more pictures...
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Wheat clash?...
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Parallel Lines running through "Y"...
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Do the VAM-22 and VAM-23 dies share similarities between them?

This is the second 23B in two days that's given me fits... Thought the other one was a VAM-4...

This VAM is taunting me... :cry:
It's coming... :popcorn:

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TheYokel
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Re: Need 83-O Expert... VAM-22A With Extremely Rusted Die...?

Post by TheYokel » Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:02 pm

twohawks wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:51 pm
This coin is not a VAM-22a or even a VAM-22. If this was a VAM 22a you would be able to see the clashed E with reading glasses
100% not saying I'm not seeing things... But...

Isn't that exactly where my marks are? Just a lot fainter?...

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twohawks
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Re: Need 83-O Expert... VAM-23B With Possible Transfer...?

Post by twohawks » Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:31 am

TheYokel, I have seen a bunch of phantom E Clashed in my day, and if you ask anyone here about 5 years ago I saw many. From experience I understand that PMD or Post Mint Damage and toning as well as lighting can present the illusion of an E Clash.

The size of an E Clash is small, and almost everyone has other key clash marks that correspond with this type of clash. Only 1 E Clashed dollar is a light clash where most of the common markers are not found and that one being the 1880 P V 33a. I can tell you that the EDS of that die clash also shares the normal key markers such as the wreath clashing above the bonnet, all be it light its present.
You keep posting a bunch of photos that are meaningless, meaning most of the things that are known about a VAM but are not in the official listing. This is because the Die is the Die, and once you list out the key feature or features the balance of the information has no real importance. and the Encyclopedia would be 10 feet tall Some of us find the degree of rust or clashing more interesting, but it doesn't make the notation new.
PS what you have marked out is A) the wrong size, B) its in the wrong location, c) its the wrong shape, D the image looks incused and an E Clash is raised, E) your coin is clashed on the low side, meaning the neck and hair vee side of the BO die, the E in LIBERTY is on the high side, so no way is this coin an E Clash.

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impairedsquirrel
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Re: Need 83-O Expert... VAM-23B With Possible Transfer...?

Post by impairedsquirrel » Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:03 am

Ant, your "marks" wouldn't be "marks" in about the same place, the E transfer is EXACTLY THE SAME on all 22a's (and through the 36a, until late in that die's life). That's the part you don't seem to be able to comprehend, VAMs aren't "kind of like what's in that picture I saw", they are the exact same features on the exact same dies, with exceptions for progression (in breaks) and die wear (in clashes).
I go totally NUTS for WOW! VAMs!! Or is that from WOW! VAMs?

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TheYokel
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Re: Need 83-O Expert... VAM-23B With Possible Transfer...?

Post by TheYokel » Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:10 am

impairedsquirrel wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:03 am
Ant, your "marks" wouldn't be "marks" in about the same place, the E transfer is EXACTLY THE SAME on all 22a's (and through the 36a, until late in that die's life). That's the part you don't seem to be able to comprehend, VAMs aren't "kind of like what's in that picture I saw", they are the exact same features on the exact same dies, with exceptions for progression (in breaks) and die wear (in clashes).
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Raybob15239
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Re: Need 83-O Expert... VAM-23B With Possible Transfer...?

Post by Raybob15239 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:21 pm

That's a phantom, Ant. Look at the angles and location. They do not match up. It can be a bag mark, toning, who knows, but it is not an E.
I swear, someday I will learn how to grade Peace Dollars!

vamsterdam
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Re: Need 83-O Expert... VAM-23B With Possible Transfer...?

Post by vamsterdam » Sun Nov 25, 2018 2:01 pm

Does it look like the vam 22a photo? No. You may have infused faint lines from the roller marks made on the planchet. The E is raised on an E clash. An e clash will not be incused.

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LorenAlbert
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Re: Need 83-O Expert... VAM-23B With Possible Transfer...?

Post by LorenAlbert » Sun Nov 25, 2018 2:34 pm

Additional 83O22A markers are identified on the following external pages.
1883OV22A, HRLFCPs

You may find it interesting to try to ferret out the clashed Es on the LFCPs. They are there but that photography did not capture the Es despite capturing the rotation of the folded wheat leaf (eliminates 36A). Often times you will benefit having different tools in the bag to deal with less that ideal photography. Check the olive stem clash on the obverse. Note that the clash extends onto the field past the widest part of the stem; this eliminates 36A. And much more is seen, other than the E, to lock the 22A die pair identification across LFCPs.
It is not clear to me that you thought your coin was a 22A. You asked about a clashed 23B.
The most convincing, but doubtful, transfer hinted at by your 23B photographs is the MM on the obverse - grain/wheat. I do not see corroborative findings. Nonetheless, for grins, please photograph the region of the olive stem and RW5. Look for a folded wheat leaf clash intersecting the MM.

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Re: Need 83-O Expert... VAM-23B With Possible Transfer...?

Post by TheYokel » Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:13 pm

LorenAlbert wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 2:34 pm
Additional 83O22A markers are identified on the following external pages.
1883OV22A, HRLFCPs

You may find it interesting to try to ferret out the clashed Es on the LFCPs. They are there but that photography did not capture the Es despite capturing the rotation of the folded wheat leaf (eliminates 36A). Often times you will benefit having different tools in the bag to deal with less that ideal photography. Check the olive stem clash on the obverse. Note that the clash extends onto the field past the widest part of the stem; this eliminates 36A. And much more is seen, other than the E, to lock the 22A die pair identification across LFCPs.
It is not clear to me that you thought your coin was a 22A. You asked about a clashed 23B.
The most convincing, but doubtful, transfer hinted at by your 23B photographs is the MM on the obverse - grain/wheat. I do not see corroborative findings. Nonetheless, for grins, please photograph the region of the olive stem and RW5. Look for a folded wheat leaf clash intersecting the MM.
I did post it as a 22A at first. That was the reason for checking the ear for the die chips.

And also why the diagonal lines you see in the Y of LIBERTY on a 22A are photo'd.

I hope i photo'd this correctly. Getting it in focus is an act of Congress through this plastic holder...
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Funny enough... I think the bits of metal in the MM I've been showing in photos is actually the clash line from the wheat lol. Solving 2 mysteries with one picture... I'm all for that lol.

Thank you for the guidance Loren...

Edit: this is the clash from the olive stem to the MM. Sorry for photo delay.
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impairedsquirrel
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Re: Need 83-O Expert... VAM-23B With Possible Transfer...?

Post by impairedsquirrel » Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:29 pm

Ant, look at the photo of the ACTUAL E clash and your photo posted in the same post... do they look EXACTLY IDENTICAL? No. You have no E because your coin isn't clashed (or may be lightly clashed), which also means the lines in the MM AREN'T CLASH LINES FROM ANYTHING...
I go totally NUTS for WOW! VAMs!! Or is that from WOW! VAMs?

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Re: Need 83-O Expert... VAM-23B With Possible Transfer...?

Post by TheYokel » Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:33 pm

impairedsquirrel wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:29 pm
Ant, look at the photo of the ACTUAL E clash and your photo posted in the same post... do they look EXACTLY IDENTICAL? No. You have no E because your coin isn't clashed (or may be lightly clashed), which also means the lines in the MM AREN'T CLASH LINES FROM ANYTHING...
You seem like you need coffee. Or a joint... Something...

I'm just answering Loren's request. No need to break your keyboard...
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Re: Need 83-O Expert... VAM-22A?... VAM-23B With Possible Transfer...?

Post by LorenAlbert » Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:38 pm

Funny enough... I think the bits of metal in the MM I've been showing in photos is actually the clash line from the wheat lol. Solving 2 mysteries with one picture... I'm all for that lol.
The MM may have been punched before the dies were polished. The inside loop of the mint mark may be slightly below the surface (field) of the die. Thus, the lines inside the loop are likely polishing lines that survived die polishing after the MM was punched. A folded wheat clash would transect the outside loop of the MM and possibly not be seen crossing the inside loop depending on rotation and on the depth of the inside loop on the die. There is a mark between RW5 and the olive stem ribbon that could be mistaken for a clash mark from the folded wheat leaf. Not likely though. For the record, please photograph the batwing (cap V clash) between the left wing and RW1.

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Re: Need 83-O Expert... VAM-22A?... VAM-23B With Possible Transfer...?

Post by TheYokel » Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:46 pm

LorenAlbert wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:38 pm
Funny enough... I think the bits of metal in the MM I've been showing in photos is actually the clash line from the wheat lol. Solving 2 mysteries with one picture... I'm all for that lol.
The MM may have been punched before the dies were polished. The inside loop of the mint mark may be slightly below the surface (field) of the die. Thus, the lines inside the loop are likely polishing lines that survived die polishing after the MM was punched. A folded wheat clash would transect the outside loop of the MM and possibly not be seen crossing the inside loop depending on rotation and on the depth of the inside loop on the die. There is a mark between RW5 and the olive stem ribbon that could be mistaken for a clash mark from the folded wheat leaf. Not likely though. For the record, please photograph the batwing (cap V clash) between the left wing and RW1.
This one mr. Loren?...
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Re: Need 83-O Expert... VAM-22A?... VAM-23B With Possible Transfer...?

Post by LorenAlbert » Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:02 am

Notice how the hair line transects the tip of the inside long leaf of RW1? I can use this datum to set a rotation tool. Having done so, I know that the neck line you photographed that intersects the center of the left leg of the n is of the same clash event as the bat wing. also, I can compare the wing clash at the neck line and verify that it also is of the same clash event. Once you have corroborative clash data indicating that a clash from a previous marriage or failed repair work is not in play; you can then know where to precisely expect transfer to show. Your coin does not show misalignment of the dies. Your coin shows a single clash event at about 1 deg. With this information I can look at the mark between the ribbon and LW5 and know that it is not a clash mark. This mark would need to be further down the olive stem to be a putative clash mark of the folded wheat leaf. Also, the phantom MM on the obverse can not be real because at the rotation of the clash event the MM would barely hit the field of the obverse die. Clash transfers have to be corroborated by other clash marks and they must make sense. I highly recommend that you look into purchasing a rotation tool. I use mine (Forfa from Lee) nearly every day. Loren

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TheYokel
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Re: Need 83-O Expert... VAM-22A?... VAM-23B With Possible Transfer...?

Post by TheYokel » Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:56 am

LorenAlbert wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:02 am
Notice how the hair line transects the tip of the inside long leaf of RW1? I can use this datum to set a rotation tool. Having done so, I know that the neck line you photographed that intersects the center of the left leg of the n is of the same clash event as the bat wing. also, I can compare the wing clash at the neck line and verify that it also is of the same clash event. Once you have corroborative clash data indicating that a clash from a previous marriage or failed repair work is not in play; you can then know where to precisely expect transfer to show. Your coin does not show misalignment of the dies. Your coin shows a single clash event at about 1 deg. With this information I can look at the mark between the ribbon and LW5 and know that it is not a clash mark. This mark would need to be further down the olive stem to be a putative clash mark of the folded wheat leaf. Also, the phantom MM on the obverse can not be real because at the rotation of the clash event the MM would barely hit the field of the obverse die. Clash transfers have to be corroborated by other clash marks and they must make sense. I highly recommend that you look into purchasing a rotation tool. I use mine (Forfa from Lee) nearly every day. Loren
Thank you for the amazing descriptions and walking me through it boss. That is going to clear up a lot of misconceptions in the future when I'm looking at things. I'll try to find an overlay tool to order asap.

Question then... If this is a 23B... Can you check the overlay you made and see if I am crazy about this being the leg of an N clash on the neck?...
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This this the wing, and you can see that the clash line completely passed through the N and out the top...
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This is what I think might be my N leg... I've outlined the clash and the approximate distance I think I should be looking... And I circled the "leg" I'm looking at. The same amount I should expect to see based on the clash is what I think is showing on the neck...
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Re: Need 83-O Expert... VAM-23B With N Neck Transfer...? New pics.

Post by TheYokel » Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:08 am

This is the picture without the lines added.

To be 100% honest i can't tell if the line I highlighted or the line above it is what I should be looking at...

Just trying to learn as much as possible from this one before moving on to the next...

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