1882 VAM?

[lhnumis1]

Should the coin illustrated below be among the doubled 18-2 coins listed for 1882 VAMs?

Doubled 1-82
1882-P VAM-7 Doubled 1-82
Doubled 18-2
1882-P VAM-15 Doubled 18-2
1882-P VAM-15A Doubled 18-2, Die Break Ear
1882-P VAM-30 Doubled 18-2, Metal in Date

obverse

DOLLAR1882DBLD18_2LOT394OBV.jpg (58.79 KiB) Viewed 370 times

THE '1' EXHIBITS DOUBLING ON THE TOP OF THE LOWER CROSSBAR BOTH RIGHT & LEFT. DOUBLING IS ALSO NOTED ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE UPRIGHT.

DOLLAR1882DBLD18_2LOT394OBV2.jpg (14.59 KiB) Viewed 370 times

THE LEFT '8' EXHIBITS RAISED LINES AT THE INSIDE BOTTOM & TOP OF THE LOWER LOOP. A SMALL DIE CHIP IS NOTED AT THE INSIDE LOWER RIGHT OF THE UPPER LOOP. A DIE CHIP AT THE OUTSIDE LEFT BETWEEN THE UPPER AND LOWER LOOPS IS NOTED. IN ADDTION, LIGHT UNDERCUT DOUBLING APPEARS ON THE OUTSIDE LOWER LEFT OF THE UPPER LOOP.

DOLLAR1882DBLD18_2LOT394OBV3.jpg (20.64 KiB) Viewed 370 times

THE '2' IS OF THE CLOSED VARIETY & DOUBLED HEAVILY AT THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE 'BALL'. BELOW THE 'BALL'. THE DESCENDING CURVE IS STRONGLY DOUBLED TERMINATING IN A RAISED LUMP.

DOLLAR1882DBLD18_2LOT394OBV4.jpg (17.21 KiB) Viewed 370 times

THE EAR EXHIBITS LIGHT TRIPLING AT THE BOTTOM OF THE EARLOBE.

DOLLAR1882DBLD18_2LOT394OBV5.jpg (34.08 KiB) Viewed 370 times

[lhnumis1]

The following are several reverse images...they indicate over polishing of some of the devices & some slight doubling of part of the inscription. There is also some slight doubling on the motto. The balance of the reverse is unremarkable. Any chance this may be new?

REVERSE

DOLLAR1882DBLD18_2LOT394REV.jpg (64.51 KiB) Viewed 349 times

BRANCH & TWO LEAVES DISCONNECTED

DOLLAR1882DBLD18_2LOT394REV2.jpg (44.67 KiB) Viewed 349 times

BRANCH & TWO LEAVES DISCONNECTED

DOLLAR1882DBLD18_2LOT394REV3.jpg (51.9 KiB) Viewed 349 times

1st 'T' IN 'STATES'

DOLLAR1882DBLD18_2LOT394REV4.jpg (18.43 KiB) Viewed 349 times

'A' & 2nd 'T' IN 'STATES'

DOLLAR1882DBLD18_2LOT394REV5.jpg (37.64 KiB) Viewed 349 times

[lhnumis1]

Another obverse characteristic...doubled Phrygian Cap.

DOLLAR1882DBLD18_2LOT394OBV6.jpg (45.72 KiB) Viewed 335 times

[MarkyB]

I would add VAMs 22, 42, and 44 to your list of possible matches.

[lhnumis1]

Thanks for responding MB.
My take on VAM22,42,44…
VAM 22 does not mention a doubling of the ‘1’. The VAM 22 images of the date do not match my coin. The ‘X’ in the lower part of the ‘Y’ of ‘LIBERTY’ does not appear on my coin. My coin appears to exhibit considerable die erosion @ ‘LIBERTY’…see images below. The die markers (polishing line images shown for V 22) near the tail & leg feathers are absent on my coin (see images below).
VAM 42 exhibits a ‘1’ w/o doubling on the top of the bottom crossbar. It also shows a 2nd ‘8’ with doubling…my coin does not exhibit doubling on the second ‘8’.
VAM 44 is absent a doubled ‘1’. Unlike the V 44, the coin in hand is not clashed & does not exhibit a die chip in the ‘T’ of ‘LIBERTY’.
Below, also find an image of what appears to be a broken or doubled designer initial from my coin (just found it about an hour ago).
I have examined all the VAMs for 1882 on the website and have found them wanting. But, as you have rightly pointed out, there is a large amount of information to which I am not privy. It seems likely, that I am missing something crucial.
Many thanks for responding once again.
lhnumis

LIBE

DOLLAR1882DBLD18_2LOT394OBV7.jpg (36.29 KiB) Viewed 303 times

RTY

DOLLAR1882DBLD18_2LOT394OBV8.jpg (22.62 KiB) Viewed 303 times

BROKEN OR DOUBLED DESIGNER INTIAL

DOLLAR1882DBLD18_2LOT394REV6.jpg (41.54 KiB) Viewed 303 times

EAGLE'S LEFT LEG

DOLLAR1882DBLD18_2LOT394REV7.jpg (41.32 KiB) Viewed 303 times

EAGLE'S RIGHT LEG

DOLLAR1882DBLD18_2LOT394REV8.jpg (123.4 KiB) Viewed 303 times

[Albannach]

The VAM 22 currently has 2 known die pairs (catagorically speaking), Check VAM 22A page for the VAM 22 Die 1 markers. I have a few pics on the 22 page as well. I have NEVER seen a VAM 22 die 1 (22A die pair)..... ever...

Have a look at VAM 18...

The reverse....look at 21, 32 and 33 for matching secondaries.

Please understand, 82 was an interesting year. It is almost like they randomly paired dies for runs, but also kept a marriage together for long run periods. The VAM 5 is amazing marriage to look at, from UEDS until the ULDS, those reverse cracks, 360 degrees around the rim, yet the markers remain. There are lots of VAM 5's called other things, because of the digit wear, but the secondaries don't lie. Some strikes are extremely low pop. 21, 22A(D1), 31A, 35...The markers did not last, but the die continued on it's life journey.

That being said, The 1 doubling is pretty strong...

[lhnumis1]

Thanks Albannach for responding. In looking @ VAM22A, I do not see any way that my coin matches inasmuch as VAM22A exhibits an obverse clash at the neck-jaw junction along with the remnant ‘n’. The associated clash evidence at the lips & chin can be seen in the full coin images. My coin is not clashed & exhibits none of the markers.
The VAM22 dies 1&2 don’t seem to match either. The matches that seem similar are the doubling at the right side of the ball, the slanted slope below the ball and the top of the Phrygian cap. The balance of the markers for dies 1&2 are not present on the coin in hand.
VAM18 has a description w/o images. The description does not match my piece since it mentions a doubled date. The piece at hand has no doubling of any kind for the right 8. The other doubling described does not match the doubling on my piece in detail. This precludes a match to VAM18.
The reverses 21, 32 & 33 have a few matching elements such as slight doubling of parts of the legend & motto. However, they do not match the subject coin reverse in detail.
Below find additional images of my piece.

As a matter of interest, I discovered the obverse die crack & the reverse die scratch today.
lhnumis

OBV:DATE ALIGNMENT ~ 2.3-2.4

DOLLAR1882DBLD18_2LOT394OBV10.jpg (61.29 KiB) Viewed 244 times

OBV:DIE CRACK-STAR 6 @ LEFT TOWARD BASE OF NOSE...TERMINATES IN FIELD

DOLLAR1882DBLD18_2LOT394OBV11.jpg (45.3 KiB) Viewed 244 times

OBV:LOWER CROSSBAR DOUBLING & ALIGNMENT

DOLLAR1882DBLD18_2LOT394OBV12.jpg (16.54 KiB) Viewed 244 times

REV:DIE SCRATCH-EAGLE'S RIGHT WING:ALIGNS WITH THE TOP LEAF OF CLUSTER 1 IN THE LEFT WREATH

DOLLAR1882DBLD18_2LOT394REV9.jpg (48.13 KiB) Viewed 244 times

[Albannach]

I guess the obvious question is

Do you have a 22A to compare?

[lhnumis1]

Regrettably, I do not have an example of a VAM22A in hand with which I might compare my piece. It might contain markers that could match my piece and convince me that I might have an EDS of that VAM.
A note of apology…I initially listed my item among the doubled 1-82 coins of 1882. This was done in error. I should have listed my item among the doubled 18-2 coins. The coins contained in the 18-2 group are:VAM-15, VAM-15A & VAM-30. Neither of these coins match my piece, using the VAM web pages as source material.
As I have found all examples 1882 wanting, I must conclude that my piece is a new VAM. I would like to be proved wrong. It seems unlikely to me that a piece acquired in Pennsylvania 45 years ago has escaped
VAM designation.

[Albannach]

New management may agree…

If you need instant gratification, this is the wrong year for you. The date doubling is no smoking gun for study. Some doubling (IMHO) listed is strike related…
As we say here. TDITD. This is where I live. It can be counter productive when listings occur by classification

I look at dies and marriages in this series. This is trouble as many many duplicate listings exist for same marriage, so my brain goes to die a,b,c obv and rev. The only VAMS I really care about are the clashed listings
A van 5 is a 5a die pair to me period

So without a 22a you have no idea what the marriage for 22 even looks like

If I were you I would tag it VNA and put it aside until you gain clarity

And. Question

What exactly is your purpose in drawing the line from 1 to dents, for this year?

[lhnumis1]

Am in full agreement with your analysis & approach…A VNA it is ‘till something turns up. The line to the dentils were extra images I had not shown previously…and to remind me of the exact position of the date. Not all ‘normal’ dates are created equal. This one gravitates toward the beginning of the dentil…closer to a ‘near date’ rather than closer to a ‘far date’.
Thanks Albannach for your much appreciated input.

[keilg1]

Am in full agreement with your analysis & approach…A VNA it is ‘till something turns up. The line to the dentils were extra images I had not shown previously…and to remind me of the exact position of the date. Not all ‘normal’ dates are created equal. This one gravitates toward the beginning of the dentil…closer to a ‘near date’ rather than closer to a ‘far date’.
Thanks Albannach for your much appreciated input.

To continue the learning, there is NO variation of the first two digits of the date - therefore, there can't be any "closer to a 'near date' rather than closer to a 'far date'" in the discussion. See the explanation at http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... ositioning. You'll see, the first two digits (18) were fixed between 1878 and 1883, so the first mention of any variation is in 1884... and then only between normal, far and very far... continuing in 1885 (but with a few 'almost near' mentions)... and the first true near dates showing up in 1886.

[lhnumis1]

Clarification always welcome. Thanks keilgl!