Best resource for satin and matte low relief peace dollar proof diagnostics?

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coinnoob7
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Best resource for satin and matte low relief peace dollar proof diagnostics?

Post by coinnoob7 » Sat Jan 28, 2023 3:47 pm

If there's no list of diagnostics anywhere are there higher resolution photos than on PCGS or microscope photos somewhere?

Since they were experimental I've heard they ran the dies to failure and melted most of the coins, but hypothetically if the a later die stage coins did survive, that is with normal flow lines since the satin/matte finish would've deteriorated, what diagnostics would it share with the early strikes? Does anyone have a primary historical source to confirm or discount this possibility?

Of course they're absurdly rare and this is just an interesting thought experiment but y'all would know best. Thanks.

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vampicker
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Re: Best resource for satin and matte low relief peace dollar proof diagnostics?

Post by vampicker » Sat Jan 28, 2023 5:34 pm

I'd say the Peace Dollar Red Book done by @RogerB . I'd also suggest looking at images of examples from the Heritage Auction archives
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RogerB
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Re: Best resource for satin and matte low relief peace dollar proof diagnostics?

Post by RogerB » Sat Jan 28, 2023 6:11 pm

The low relief 1922 Peace dollar proofs were struck during or just before the meeting of the Annual Assay Commission in February that year. Members of the Commission were shown the coins - the first low relief pieces - and at least one or two were sold for their face value: $1 each. Some others were sold to mint officers involved with the project, and at least one went to James Fraser since he was a creative consultant from the beginning of the competition in 1921.

Only one die pair was used and there is no known record of the number struck or of the number that were sandblasted. (A satin and sandblast proof are identical except for the post-strike sandblast.) The die were from the first hubs with somewhat better obverse detail than later circulation issues and the olive branch detached from the eagle's leg. Approximately 200,000 circulation pieces were struck as test production, and examined by James Fraser. He approved the design and also approved combining the test pieces with normal Philadelphia circulation strikes and releasing them. The test production and early normal production piece are identical and we lack enough information to make any reasonable assignment of any coin to one pair of hubs, or to the later pair adopted before dies went out to the other mints.

Satin 1922 LR proofs have full design detail, sharp square rims for most of the periphery, and sharper edge reeds. These and other anti-counterfeiting details are known to the major authentication companies.

Sandblast 1922 LR proofs have slightly blurred fine detail due to the abrasive action of fine grit, and the surfaces will be dull. The edge is identical to satin proofs -- they all started out the same way.

Novice collectors accustomed to the usual flat 1922 and 1923 Peace dollars, routinely jump to conclusions when the happen across one with good detail from the first hubs.

Also note that the VAM hub description is backwards. The ones mentioned in my book are historically correct.

Hope this helps.

coinnoob7
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Re: Best resource for satin and matte low relief peace dollar proof diagnostics?

Post by coinnoob7 » Tue Sep 19, 2023 10:16 am

I should've bought your book sooner, its an amazing resource. Thank you.

I bought the kindle version which is the 2012 2nd edition. I'm confused about this coin though from a 2014 HA.com sale. It has the third mountain peak and connected olive branch but ANACS certified it as a proof. Any thoughts? Does the 3rd ed have any additional information on diagnostics for 22LR PRs?

https://coins.ha.com/itm/proof-peace-do ... ail-071515

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vampicker
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Re: Best resource for satin and matte low relief peace dollar proof diagnostics?

Post by vampicker » Tue Sep 19, 2023 11:45 am

The coin was done by ANACS in November 1992 and there was a difference of opinion about the piece.
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RogerB
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Re: Best resource for satin and matte low relief peace dollar proof diagnostics?

Post by RogerB » Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:38 pm

Several TPGs have a tendency to "coinfuse" or ignore facts when it comes to satin and sandblast proofs. Several ordinary strikes have been certifies as "proof" because they were sandblasted -- even though they lack required detail and/or mechanical indicators.

The coin in question is nice but the reverse should match the first trial pieces (detached branch), not the ones with attached olive branch which were made several weeks later. (The 1922 LR proofs were struck just before or during the 1922 Assay Commission meeting. They used the trial dies available at that time.) Fraser accepted the trial pieces and they are included in 1922-P propducyion

I suspect this is part of TPG failure to correct early operation errors and falsehoods. This perpetuates mistakes making them a sort of "institutional fraud" on future submissions.

coinnoob7
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Re: Best resource for satin and matte low relief peace dollar proof diagnostics?

Post by coinnoob7 » Fri Sep 22, 2023 6:29 pm

were the 1921 Zerbe and Chapman Morgans also struck on a medal press? Do they the same lines on the reeds as the peace proofs and patterns? What about earlier morgans?

RogerB
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Re: Best resource for satin and matte low relief peace dollar proof diagnostics?

Post by RogerB » Fri Sep 22, 2023 9:07 pm

There is no such thing as a "Zerbe 1921 proof." All the ones given that "title" are proof-like, made on a normal toggle press.

I have not had the opportunity to carefully examine a "Chapman proof," although I saw one in an NGC display a few years ago. These coins were described as "not proof, but every bit as fine," by the curator of the Mint Cabinet to George Godard in May 1921. (See Connecticut State Library, RG 12, box 77, folder “Mitchelson-Comparette correspondence.”) Therefore I have no other facts about how the "Chapman" pieces were produced.

Other opinions will differ.

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