1923-P VAM Question

[tj52]

Is it common to have multiple VAM's on one coin? I see a bunch of stuff on this coin; cracks, chips clashes and die scratches. I'm probably missing some as well.

[MarkyB]

VAMs can be sequenced when many anomalys or dies are involved but no, there are not multiple VAMs for one coin. The 23 Peace is a tough nut. Look for chips in her hair but the crack or break from her neck to the 1 in the date looks severe so its probably listed somewhere. I can't identify anything else looking at your pics. Good hunting.

[DarksideVAM]

Check VAM 1AC2

[tj52]

VAMs can be sequenced when many anomalys or dies are involved but no, there are not multiple VAMs for one coin. The 23 Peace is a tough nut. Look for chips in her hair but the crack or break from her neck to the 1 in the date looks severe so its probably listed somewhere. I can't identify anything else looking at your pics. Good hunting.

Thank you for the feedback. I will post close-up pictures.

So to be clear. You're saying these coins DON'T have multiple VAM's on one coin? This coin has die cracks, chips and clashes all over it. On the obv & rev.

Do you want to see close-up pictures of them?

[tj52]

Check VAM 1AC2

The 1AC2 is there and visible.

[messydesk]

First things first, there's no such thing as multiple VAMs on one coin. It's a common misconception stemming from a misunderstanding of what a VAM is. A VAM is a specific combination of an obverse and a reverse die that can be told apart from other such combinations. The way we tell them apart is by features like die breaks, doubled dies, mint mark positions, etc. A VAM is not a feature and a feature is not a VAM. In cases where the features in question are considered too insignificant to catalog, such as minor die cracks, die polishing, and faint clashing, they are typically ignored with respect to cataloging.

[tj52]

Keep in mind during this discussion, I know nothing about VAM's. I'm a complete novice.

[MarkyB]

1AC2 has a lot of data in the listing. Start there and see if its a match.

[tj52]

First things first, there's no such thing as multiple VAMs on one coin. It's a common misconception stemming from a misunderstanding of what a VAM is. A VAM is a specific combination of an obverse and a reverse die that can be told apart from other such combinations. The way we tell them apart is by features like die breaks, doubled dies, mint mark positions, etc. A VAM is not a feature and a feature is not a VAM. In cases where the features in question are considered too insignificant to catalog, such as minor die cracks, die polishing, and faint clashing, they are typically ignored with respect to cataloging.

And this is why I probably have zero interest in VAM's...... I'm already confused! But I appreciate your feedback.

Stby......

[tj52]

1AC2 has a lot of data in the listing. Start there and see if its a match.

If it's a match, is it a big deal? Or would it be significant? Or just a common VAM?

[MarkyB]

A big deal? That would depend on why your trying to identify the VAM. The 1AC2 is not on the top 100 VAM list or hot 50/Elite 30. However, I have VAMs also not on those lists but I think they're pretty special. If your trying to VAM for a profit, the coin date, MM, and grade are much more relevent than the VAM. Some VAMs can add a few hundred dollars (very few) but many will add a few bucks if the buyer is a VAMer.

[tj52]

A big deal? That would depend on why your trying to identify the VAM. The 1AC2 is not on the top 100 VAM list or hot 50/Elite 30. However, I have VAMs also not on those lists but I think they're pretty special. If your trying to VAM for a profit, the coin date, MM, and grade are much more relevent than the VAM. Some VAMs can add a few hundred dollars (very few) but many will add a few bucks if the buyer is a VAMer.

That answers my question, thank you. Maybe I should have said: Would this 1923 Peace Dollar with this VAM be of any interest to anyone here?

I'm a coin guy but not a VAM guy. To me these VAM's would be more like mint errors or varieties. There's just so many of them, it makes my head spin!!

I'll take some close-up pictures (the best I can with my digital camera) and post them here.

[tj52]

Here's the 1AC and the 1AC2. Plus the VAM-1AC1 X Die Scratches Below Talons and a 1AH clashed N tip. That's 4 on one coin, right?

[tj52]

This is a real pain in the butt!! Each post only takes so many pictures? Plus the pictures didn't go in the order I wanted!!

[tj52]

Forgot one.

[tj52]

These are the one I found on the website. Are these not each VAM's? They are all on one coin.

[RogerRock]

Nice find on the 1923 VAM 1AC2. Any variety with a nickname is special as in this case "Whisker Chin". Twin clash spikes off the eagle's shoulder, intersecting die cracks forming an X below eagle's talon, and line through D are interesting die markers.
Recently, my 1923 VAM 1AC2 specimen received an MS 63 grade from ANACS.

[tj52]

Nice find on the 1923 VAM 1AC2. Any variety with a nickname is special as in this case "Whisker Chin". Twin clash spikes off the eagle's shoulder, intersecting die cracks forming an X below eagle's talon, and line through D are interesting die markers.
Recently, my 1923 VAM 1AC2 specimen received an MS 63 grade from ANACS.

I don't have a clue what I'm doing Roger but thanks. Between you and me, I probably have no business being here!

[keilg1]

Nice find on the 1923 VAM 1AC2. Any variety with a nickname is special as in this case "Whisker Chin". Twin clash spikes off the eagle's shoulder, intersecting die cracks forming an X below eagle's talon, and line through D are interesting die markers.
Recently, my 1923 VAM 1AC2 specimen received an MS 63 grade from ANACS.

I don't have a clue what I'm doing Roger but thanks. Between you and me, I probably have no business being here!

I'd also welcome you to the site and community. Your questions suggest you have beyond 'zero' interest in VAMs - and you certainly have as much busness being here as any of us.

Your questions are actually good ones. The home page (http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... /wiki/Home) as I'm sure you're now familiar with has multiple spots to help you learn more - see especially the 'For Newcomers' along the far left side. I've been at this a while and find myself going back again and again to keep learning.

As for your picture showing two 'different' coins that might appear to be two different VAMs - the '1AC Twin Clash Spikes' and the '1AC2 Whisker Chin' pictures that are on the webpage side-by-side - I AGREE this can be confusing so you're not insane! The clue, but not necessarily obvious, is in the root name - 1AC... The latter (1AC2) is simply a later designation, most often a later stage of the same die pair that shows more unique qualities. As other coins are found and better understanding of the varieties updates, so, too, do the numbers/nomenclature. If you see, the 1AC has been reassigned to be 1AC2, for some reason but the pages don't say why. ALL VAM-1AC(then fill in the blank) coins are related by being from the same die pairing. Seeing something that is also described on another variety doesn't mean your coin has multiple VAMs. Like the 1AH having a 'clasned N tip' - it's the entire combination of features that creates the VAM, not single ones.

The pictures on more than a few pages are incomplete, for sure, but all of this is run by volunteers so there are, literally, hundreds of pages to update, amend, etc. all the time!

You'll get the hang of it - including how to post pictures in the order you want - if you truly have an interest. This site proves 'old dogs' can learn new tricks. Painfully and slow at times, but possible with patience.

As for the 'any interest to anyone here' question - I believe you got your answer by our answers. I'm not a Peace dollar collector generally but I find their crazy production to be of interest. I'm also interested in learning, which your questions have helpe me accomplish. If I could buy you a 'thank you drink,' I would. In lieu of the drink, the thank you will need to suffice!

[tj52]

Nice find on the 1923 VAM 1AC2. Any variety with a nickname is special as in this case "Whisker Chin". Twin clash spikes off the eagle's shoulder, intersecting die cracks forming an X below eagle's talon, and line through D are interesting die markers.
Recently, my 1923 VAM 1AC2 specimen received an MS 63 grade from ANACS.

I don't have a clue what I'm doing Roger but thanks. Between you and me, I probably have no business being here!

I'd also welcome you to the site and community. Your questions suggest you have beyond 'zero' interest in VAMs - and you certainly have as much busness being here as any of us.

Your questions are actually good ones. The home page (http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... /wiki/Home) as I'm sure you're now familiar with has multiple spots to help you learn more - see especially the 'For Newcomers' along the far left side. I've been at this a while and find myself going back again and again to keep learning.

As for your picture showing two 'different' coins that might appear to be two different VAMs - the '1AC Twin Clash Spikes' and the '1AC2 Whisker Chin' pictures that are on the webpage side-by-side - I AGREE this can be confusing so you're not insane! The clue, but not necessarily obvious, is in the root name - 1AC... The latter (1AC2) is simply a later designation, most often a later stage of the same die pair that shows more unique qualities. As other coins are found and better understanding of the varieties updates, so, too, do the numbers/nomenclature. If you see, the 1AC has been reassigned to be 1AC2, for some reason but the pages don't say why. ALL VAM-1AC(then fill in the blank) coins are related by being from the same die pairing. Seeing something that is also described on another variety doesn't mean your coin has multiple VAMs. Like the 1AH having a 'clasned N tip' - it's the entire combination of features that creates the VAM, not single ones.

The pictures on more than a few pages are incomplete, for sure, but all of this is run by volunteers so there are, literally, hundreds of pages to update, amend, etc. all the time!

You'll get the hang of it - including how to post pictures in the order you want - if you truly have an interest. This site proves 'old dogs' can learn new tricks. Painfully and slow at times, but possible with patience.

As for the 'any interest to anyone here' question - I believe you got your answer by our answers. I'm not a Peace dollar collector generally but I find their crazy production to be of interest. I'm also interested in learning, which your questions have helpe me accomplish. If I could buy you a 'thank you drink,' I would. In lieu of the drink, the thank you will need to suffice!

Thanks for the feedback keilg1. Thanks for the clarification. I appreciate you taking the time to explain the procedure and the process here.

I'm just an outsider looking in. I'm just passing thru. I tried to do what little research I could on my own. I don't want to be a pain in the ass here. I know what newbies can be like. I don't plan on having a long-term interest in VAM's, I don't collect them. I just have a handful of random Peace and Morgan's I recently acquired. Was looking to see if there was anything significant or of interest.

You're from Nottingham? I was station up in North Yorkshire for 7 years.