legitamate question about VW 1880-O Vam 2 page

[UNCLE BINGO]

that should have said We're all good ,,,,,,,,

[UNCLE BINGO]

@Geseas Well I could not find a picture in the big book for the original V2, just the same description of the reverse stating , "Reverse C3b- Normal die of C3 type with medium, tall, oval shaped, II O mint mark centered and upright."

and you're right buddy , compassion , I will let it go ..... thank you

[Geseas]

@UNCLE BINGO I think I am having a similar experience with the 1921-S thornhead pg. photos that you are having with the 1880-O Vam-2 photos. Please take a look and compare these two well known Thornheads. They are the same Vam and are pictured on the same page in the catalog.

I really concentrated on comparing the lips and the ear lobes in these two photos:

1921-S_RonH_VAM-1B3A_OBV_08282012.jpg (214.36 KiB) Viewed 286 times

Occ-ash-1921-s-v1b3a-1-14-14.jpg (305.62 KiB) Viewed 286 times

side by side

sideby compare 21-S.jpg (139.4 KiB) Viewed 284 times

I would have to say no match... looking at lips and ear lobe... The gouge is a match...kind of
What do you think? If interested in such craziness should probably start a new Thread. I will comment

[UNCLE BINGO]

HI G , not sure if I'm qualified to make that call . I will have to look at your coin tonight, when not tied up . Duty calls ... quick question , what are the reverses you put on the last page . like what vam numbers? . Right one looks like the Hamilton coin , What is the other one?

[Geseas]

HI G , not sure if I'm qualified to make that call . I will have to look at your coin tonight, when not tied up . Duty calls ... quick question , what are the reverses you put on the last page . like what vam numbers? . Right one looks like the Hamilton coin , What is the other one?

Yes, the image on the right is The 1880-O VAM-2 Hamilton.

That lmage did not transfer well, for some reason, and my point is foggy upon rereading. I will go back and edit... put some labels under the photo, maybe attempt to 'refreash' that photo altogether.

"HI G , not sure if I'm qualified to make that call"

Bob. I have to disagree with you here. You are also qualified to make people think.

[UNCLE BINGO]

K I have a second to post some thoughts and see if the spaghetti will stick to the wall , because I don't have enough information to make any kind of statements I can only guess. If I am reading the Vam Pages correctly . VAM 2 should be {in my mind} using the original description, the unclashed version of VAM 2b2 ... The reverse die numbers match along with the .center and upright call out for the MM being Centered and Upright .... the Hamilton coin, VAMS 2b1 , and 2b2 all share the same obverse , but I really think all three have a list able difference in the reverse. Without pictures of the original V2 discovered in 1917 , it is the only logical conclusion I can come up with . I mean no disrespect to anyone that has been involved in the cataloging of this vam , and realize the coins are probably common . I just don't see how any human being could have kept all of this straight in the past without using pictures, computers , etc , .... IS there an unclashed version of V2b2?
because i do not believe the Hamilton coin can qualify as VAM 2 , truth is i don't know what it is .



Thought?

[UNCLE BINGO]

I borrowed the pictures from vamworld for V2b1 and V2b2 . I hope that is ok , if not please take them down , or let me know . These are the reverse MM

Screenshot 2023-01-24 113532.jpg (79.74 KiB) Viewed 239 times

of the two other vams in question . 1 being C3b the other C3a, i also saw the note about clashing vs non clashing etc ... are both of these MM the exact same type or are they different based on the die numbers?

[RogerB]

RE: "I will tag at @RogerB because he keeps talking about some tool for newcomers that needs to be built .."

The concept is to have an initial guide that concentrates on things newcomers will see or have questions about on their Morgan and Peace dollars -- whether or not they happen to be "VAM" varieties.

This has been explained multiple times, but I get no sense that the present corps of "VAMpires" gives a rabid bat about the idea or about engaging new collectors. Responses to the 1921 Peace dollar threads support this. So, I will not bother in the future.

[UNCLE BINGO]

Hi Rog , I'm sorry , your frustration is understandable , based solely on the little bit I know of your work . You seem like an honorable man to me .That still means something where I come from . I tried to explain what I thought about the currant listing of the Hamilton coin as simple as I could . I tried to use the logic for the way the VAMS are catalogued from what has been explained to me here by the more knowledgeable members . If my hypothesis about the Hamilton coin is wrong , Please tell me why , and no offense intended at all to @ljs123 about remembering" the back when how things were done or called vs now " because in my mind that is just guessing too . With all of these things considered and keeping in mind we are all human and mistakes can happen {no matter who you are }.. does my theory have merit ? If the catalogue is not available to all for scrutiny . I fear for the future of this hobby. Please try for a moment and forget about the little one man war I have going on with the two top TPG companies because i have a feeling that will never gain much traction ... There is no profit in it . It is self sabotage almost, even to my own very tiny stake in collectable coins.

I'm not looking for a discovery coin , if this were such a thing . Mr.Hamilton would deserve that honor IMHO . I am just looking for the right number to write in my book . I really think the coin is a late die state of something besides V2 .

I really expected some kind of response from the experts . good , bad or indifferent. Heck if I'm wrong tell me so I can learn something here .

@Geseas All I really know about the 1921 dollars for sure is I suck at taking pictures of scribbles
something about those two pictures bothers me and I can't put my finger on it , don't know if its picture size , wear , strike , or just what it is . I spent a lot of years before this hobby looking for subtle' nuance in pictures . trying to filter out what counted vs what didn't . let me play with photos some more K . thanks

[Mhomei]

You are wrong
your coin is the the hamiliton pair, as known today. you are free to submit to the new the John's and they may list it with its new VAM #. only they can decide just as LVA decided many years ago on the Hamilton die pair

also not sure why the 2B1 AND 2B2 MM photos are in this thread since they have nothing to do with Hamilton die.

[vampicker]

The original VAM 2 listing was generic. It's for an unremarkable coin beyond having the 'Medium O'. Sure - it could have been called Medium O set slightly left like the VAM 51 listing. You'll note VAM 51 already had one duplicate listing that had to be killed off. Van Allen didn't plate anything but the mintmark position back in 2004.

As much as many of us hate Die 2 or 3 or whatever listings, this is the kind of coin that made that happen.

To the point though, if this was sent in now it might get a listing of it's own. I'd want markers that clearly identify the specific dies involved. If there's a bunch of nothing on the coin, I'd likely leave it as is.

The present coin is the sort of thing that gets delisted later after further study

[UNCLE BINGO]

I had a big ole post , it was very friendly BTW. I hit post and it disappeared . Jr and I must have posted at the same time . its an old familiar glitch in the php software i think ... I will have to try and write it again later .... very busy this morning . thx

[Geseas]

I had a big ole post , it was very friendly BTW. I hit post and it disappeared . Jr and I must have posted at the same time . its an old familiar glitch in the php software i think ...
I will have to try and write it ay this morning .gain later .... very bus thx

Looking forward to you post...please do not compromise your job for Vams. . I feel you may not be quite ready to be
a VAMpire...yet.

[UNCLE BINGO]

Well . the post I had this morning was much more rested ... Mhomei I'm sorry about putting your pictures on here without asking first . I am just tying to explain this little hiccup I encountered . I will also apologize for my ignorance cause i am very new to this .

It just seems to me the only coin in the class 2 as you called them that does not have a center normal MM is the one that the description says is suppose to .

@vampicker thank you for the reply . I don't want to waste anyone's time .Tthe LFCP on the V2 Hamilton coin is in way better shape than the one I tried to show ... you are probably right , the listing could be generic . i just want to know if you had a unclashed version of the same die pair as the vam 2b2 , what would you call it ?

[Mhomei]

No worries
You can always use my photos on this site.

I can pull out my V2 stuff if you really want me too

[Mhomei]

Also
I suggest that the question about the 1921 S thornhead pages be started in a new thread.

If it has thornhead in the title I am positive Pete will chime in on the correct placement of LFCPs since those images have not been updated in many years
To reflect the current status of thornies.

[UNCLE BINGO]

Man that would be awesome , the original listing messed me up . it still doesn't make any sense. i did not look at your Hill coin very close but am curious if it is the same die pair as the Hamilton or if it is different ? iIcould spot that Hamilton die pair in my sleep . I wished it was a little more remarkable .. that little bit of metal coming out of the die crack near F is kinda of blah . I was not sure if the speckles all over the devices on the obverse were from rusty dies or a little sandblaster The cracks in the date are kinda cool , makes it easy to spot i think

[Mhomei]

Hamilton die and Hill die do not share a obverse or a reverse.

I will pull my v2 series out this weekend
I will shoot you a PM when I have them all out

[UNCLE BINGO]

That is interesting . I'm pretty sure the Hamilton die shares the obverse of both 2B1 and 2B2 , that are pictured in the VW pages ,,,i only say that from staring at it for two days . Might explain why I thought what I was thinking . And I got to be honest I"m not sure what the reverse is for sure . JR mentioned the V51 and i would like to say that thing is a piece of cake to find using the VW pages .All i know is my MM took a way hard hit . I'm not really interested in discovery coins , but the musical MM thing has me curious . Its kind of like a love of the game thing with me . no matter the score

[UNCLE BINGO]

@Geseas Ive been thinking about your pictures . looks like one of them had a lot more to eat than the other . That's the best way I can explain it , I'm not sure why , or how that could be the case . what is the source of the thorn ? the hub or the die?