1878s VAM-109

[Flat-Chested]

I've a few of these VAM-109's, I see that the eye spike varies greatly, some have a very heavy and easily noticeable spike, others have the spike greatly subdued. Any input in the matter would be appreciated.

[Flat-Chested]

What was the order of production?

[lewisr2]

The II8 obverse of the V-109 is shared with V-10, V-65, and V-100.
My 109 has a very noticeable eye spike.
My V-100 and V-65 have the same noticeable spike but shorter than V-109.
My V-10 is low grade (F12), and I cannot see a spile.
In the photos V-109 and V-65 it looks like two spikes.

[lewisr2]

In my notes I have order of production as 109, 100, 65, 10.
Don't have notes on what attributes were used to determine this order or where I saw this order.

[Flat-Chested]

I guess the early die state of the VAM-109 has the massive and thick eye spike.

[78-sLongnock]

The order of production is 109, 100, 65 finally 10.
This was all tied together with the elimination of 87 back in 2016

Why Waste Our time???

[Flat-Chested]

I am not concerns about the order of production of those other VAMS, am concerned about the variation of the eye spikes in VAM-109, and their order of production.

[tbconcrete]

Your second question was order of production. Discounting it now is fine. But it matters as being 1st used on V109 then there is very little chance of a heavy polishing to create the die state you asked about. You are seeing what isnt there. Thanks Lew and Ln for your contributions. They probably have close to 40 years of combined study of 78S VAMs.

[Flat-Chested]

Again, my concern is solely with the variety of eye spikes within VAM-109, wanting to know the order of production within the confines of VAM-109. There are different die states within VAM-109.

[lewisr2]

Provide photos of the various die states of V-109.
There are plenty of VAM folks here that will give opionions.

[tbconcrete]

What Lew said. But it sounds like you already have all your answers. My 5 vary in detail from vf20 to au55.
Again, sounds like you need to post some pictures. Your attitude is why many rarely want to help some folks. You got all the answers and ask for, with a VAM King attitude, someone to tell you what doesnt exist. I hardly doubt the V109 run had any basining or polishing done.

[Flat-Chested]

I apologize for asking if anybody could clue me in to the different die stages of the 1878s VAM-109. I sure wouldn't be doing that again.

[Flat-Chested]

Oops, meant to say "die states" and not "die stages", I wanted to know what people know about the different die states of the 1878s VAM-109, as the eye spikes radically differ. I shouldn't have asked. I'm sorry.

[keilg1]

We all have a choice to post or continue a post - or not. We'll support your decision whatever it might be.

I, personally, encourage learning from these experiences, not giving up. To me your question and follow up questions were ambiguous so you received different answers than you expected.

I caught immediately that you only wanted to know about VAM-109 coins, but there is no 'order of production' within a VAM in certain ways - they all simply are, and are different than other varieties - yet there is die wear progression within. Features get bigger or smaller depending on if they're appearing due to use (e.g., cracks get bigger) or disappearing (eye spikes/gouges get smaller).

If you're asking "Do the eye spikes fade across the VAM-109 coins" you got your answer from @tbconcrete
- there would be no noticable change let alone to the degree you're asking because the reverse was swapped out forming the VAM-100 flavor before they continued fading... but long before any significant polishing happened.

Encouraging you to keep asking questions - and more clear ones at that. We can all benefit from the activities...

[Flat-Chested]

And so the big fat eye spike shown on the VAM-109 page must be from a coin that is an early die state. This eye spike looks ABSOLUTELY NOTHING like the eye spikes on later die state VAM-109 coins.

[keilg1]

If there is a coin with eye spikes that look 'absolutely nothing' like the VAM-109 plate picture, the coin is not a VAM-109. (Please note I'm choosing to not textually 'yell' back at you with capital letters - - let's all keep our cool here, eh?)

The FCP and other pictures of the VAM-100 (the next use of the obverse die) - and reiterated by some of the most experienced 78-S collectors in the field in this post - state the spikes are still there but diminished. The pictures on the VAM-65 show them to be even more diminished, but still there. We don't have pictures of VAM-10 coins so we can't see them but the description clearly states "Two short spikes below eyelid." So still there. Different looking, sure, but easily explained and seen across the die's life...

Now and to be clear, your 'absolutely nothing' statement says you have a coin (or more importantly multiple coins as a one-off is a poor thing to base any foundation on) that is an officially sanctioned (i.e., LVA, JR or JB validated) VAM-109 with eye spikes that are not like the plate photo? As requested, all of us interested in learning would love to see it/them.

Is it likely the spikes changed in appearance over time? Certainly due to die progression/wear (and as mentioned). Might there be a coin or two or more that had the die gouges interestingly filled with some substance that prevented them from showing up (and looking absolutely nothing like the others), with the substance dislodging and the subsequent coins resuming the 'pre-filled' die state, creating a few (and likely uber rare) oddities? Sure - extremely unlikely, but possible... and something I'd personally be very interested in (even to the point of being 'VERY interested' ). As the others have mentioned or inferred.

I echo your interest in these lovely coins. The 78-S coins are by far my most favorite of the entire series so any question about the more interesting ones captures my wandering attention.

In the spirit of learning, I find it fascinating that I have a coin that is definitely not a 78-S 109/100/65/10 that shows the following:

78 interesting eye spikes GRed.jpg (132.06 KiB) Viewed 1029 times

Same year, completely different mint... eerily similar eye gouges. Yup, a 78-P VAM-168. Part of the fun is trying to figure out how the heck schtuff like this happens...?

Looking forward to seeing pictures of your coin(s).

[Flat-Chested]

See the 1878s-VAM 109 photo of the eye spike above posted by Lewis, that spike doth not resemble the eye spike shown in the VAM 109 photos, in the slightest. I did not think it necessary to post photos when I started this thread, because of this great variation. Should I take the time to find examples of my own, they would look like the photo in the VAM-109 page, or would look like the photo that Lewis posted.

This whole affair reminds me of VAMWORLD 1.0, where I spent months unsuccessfully trying to upload photographs, when I finally managed to figured out how to upload photos (I was using the wrong quotation marks), I was repeatedly shat upon for not posting the photos in the proper format. I was warned when I joined years ago that this is an elite club and would be ignored and dissuaded from participating, but many of you are not just elite experts, you are abusive experts. It was suggested by one member a few years ago that the bad attitudes prevalent here is a result of people losing a lot of money due to their collecting of the VAMS.

Again, my concern is solely about the eye spike variation within VAM 109, your posting photos of eye spike from other coins obfuscates the issue.

[LateDateMorganGuy]

It seems some folks just can't take the info provided, nor find a way to at least partially help themselves. You have had the 3 folks that know the 78-S VAMs like the back of their own hands. They have tried to help you, and several have asked for photos. which are non-existent from you.

My comment about helping yourself so others can try, relates to this point. You don't think it is necessary to post photos. Guess what? Then you won't get the help you seek. Kinda simple really. Post photos of what you are talking about, and I bet they will come back to help. But maybe not since you ignored them above. Kinda simple really.

[UNCLE BINGO]

May i ask a question ?
First off I have watched this a couple times , and I have no dog in this fight , so I really don"t care .
Don"t take that the wrong way , at all .
I have no idea how long this has been going on or why so please forgive me here i just want to know something .
@Flat-Chested May I please ask you a personal question ? Are you male or female ?I don't ask to be condescending or rude , I am just curious .
I have no idea what has happened before
I have no idea about VW 1
I might for sake of not looking stupid in the future actually look up VAM 109 to try and understand this , and then again I may not,,,,
Thank you

[keilg1]

I'll take your rant accusing me of being some kind of elitist (let alone an abusive anything) as some profound hurt and frustration you're harboring - and choose to not reply in any fashion that doesn't help the conversation. I requested pictures from you to help... as did @LateDateMorganGuy and @lewisr2:

Provide photos of the various die states of V-109.
There are plenty of VAM folks here that will give opionions.

You're claiming to see something, we'd like to help by seeing it/them. Instead of spending time slinging insults why not post pictures and have a proper natter (as is said round the English countryside)? [And, no, I'm not English - I'm a Wyoming-raised country boy who happens to live here. I know, firsthand, elitist attitudes, trust me! You are not receiving the blunt end of that stick here...]

@lewisr2 posted a few pictures and you say you see them as different. I don't because of differences in lighting, wear and tear and possible past cleaning of each coin, etc. I stand open to the chance there are different eye spikes/gougesfrom different dies, thus the intent of me posting the 78-P picture (a point that was lost most likely due to your emotional state). [I will admit I sniggled a bit when I read 'doth' and 'obfuscates' because those are words some Brits use and with a holier-than-thou tone...]

Please post pictures of your coins, but not just of the eye spikes but the doubled motto, ear and B2a reverse so we can all see if have a 109 or something else. You've stated your solution in reply:

Should I take the time to find examples of my own, they would look like the photo in the VAM-109 page, or would look like the photo that Lewis posted

Please do so.

I'd also openly ask you to consider that often we get the types of responses to our communications because they are designed to elicit those responses. Please note, the tone you're using in your responses and how the lack of clarity of your original questions prompted the answers you received. Don't like the outcomes of the communications? Change the way you communicate. [A suggestion for us all, by the way. Not just you.]

Looking forward to seeing your pictures and less unhelpful rhetoric.