91-S: Friday night fight

[UNCLE BINGO]

@LateDateMorganGuy Wrote "One thing to keep in mind is that some so-called PUPS "disappear" during the die life, either from die wear, or die polishing episodes. So PUPs that come and go are not really reliable PUPS, only those that survive all die stages/states. Die studies flush these out."


So I want to thank all you guys again for this and I want to also thank @MarkyB I went looking at my own 1891-S after this little exchange and had the same Far Date / Normal MM thing going on . There is a great desire for us new to the hobby to get everything exactly like the plate photos , its probably just from not being familiar enough with the data ..I'm not sure if it matters to anyone else because these Vams don't fall on a " money list "that I am aware off. I don't want to break rules by posting multiple coins on his thread . But I was able to write VAM 5b on a coin feeling somewhat more confided about it because of your fight .... pretty sure I would not have had that easy of a time without you guys sharing .Now i just cross my fingers hoping it's right

[LateDateMorganGuy]

Okay, so I will say the obvious. If your coin has XYZ PUPS that match the posted photos for a certain VAM, but has other "thingies" with no photos, that does not make it a new VAM. I have said this recently, if it walks like a duck, swims like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it's a duck.

[UNCLE BINGO]

No sorry that"s not it at all 5 b says far date polished reverse,,, pretty solid on the reverse being exact any hesitation comes from my own unsure ness about double ears and the polishing events you mentioned .

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.

[UNCLE BINGO]

like zero of the same PUP;s around liberty so I was still going to exclude anything else . I'm not solid about the obverse at all

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[UNCLE BINGO]

I saw the other die stages in the V5 's but could not convince myself that the things mentioned in the descriptions could be found on the front of it . sorry that I suck at this

[MarkyB]

Thanks for those pictures. I'm confident our wing-neck gaps match. Not as confident about the upper tail feathers but bending the light can work wonders. I may try to match that up later. I also agree with what you said about the eye. I feel better about it being a 5 now.

[UNCLE BINGO]

I'm not sure about any of it. I didn't take a lot of pictures, and I keep tying to understand the words i find that say multiple die pairs may exist .. If not for your post I probably would not have even looked at my coin .

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[MarkyB]

Yea I get it. I have a problem understanding many of the "die progession" discussions. Unless you have physical possession of the dies and can match them to a in-service log, to include when die maintenance was accomplished, I find the science suspect. But for all I know, somebody has done just that. Hopefully, with time, I'll see the light.

[UNCLE BINGO]

Well, the additional pictures on one post is confusing maybe ... This is a honest question for the experts . And please understand when someone new says something it's not to question anyone of your credentials. Its because the person asking is trying to figure it out for them selves .The trouble sometimes with INTERNET message boards,,,, sometimes person X says something to person Y , and person Z might read like it is-directed at them ..sometimes this results in undesired results from any of the parties , Please tell me how multiple die pairs can exist? . Doesn't every die combination get its own number? I apologize if this question has been asked a million times . I'm have a hard time lately with getting close but wrong . I don't want to just get the numbers close .

[UNCLE BINGO]

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[keilg1]

Well, the additional pictures on one post is confusing maybe ... This is a honest question for the experts . And please understand when someone new says something it's not to question anyone of your credentials. Its because the person asking is trying to figure it out for them selves .The trouble sometimes with INTERNET message boards,,,, sometimes person X says something to person Y , and person Z might read like it is-directed at them ..sometimes this results in undesired results from any of the parties , Please tell me how multiple die pairs can exist? . Doesn't every die combination get its own number? I apologize if this question has been asked a million times . I'm have a hard time lately with getting close but wrong . I don't want to just get the numbers close .

Sorry, not enough time to answer all your questions but want to add your confusion is not abnormal. For example, from my question about a potential new collar clash (http://www.vamworld.com/forum/viewtopic ... 003#p59003, JB kindly answered:

For some dates there's a 1:1 relationship between VAM catalog entries and die pairs. This is typically for those dates for which there have been more rigorous die studies by an individual or years of collector attention. 1902 doesn't fall into either category, so VAM 2 will refer to whichever die pairs look like that.

VAMs, mostly, are descriptive and not necessarily die pairs, but not all the time. For example, multiple obverse dies can be combined with multiple reverse dies (creating a lot of 'die pairs') - each combination producing a far date and mint mark within tolerable variation to produce VAM-5 coins (in 1891 and for San Fran). Each die (obv and rev) could have minor variations (die scratches, polish lines, etc.) that are way too insignificant to warrant a new variety... so there could be multiple VAM-5 coins with slightly different 'thingies' as @LateDateMorganGuy eloquently described.

Micro-VAMming is chasing down the nuances (that exist on all coins) that don't equate to new variety designations... but this is where subjectivity shows up to dance at the ball. When does a minor nuance become a major one and enough to warrant a new designation/VAM? Above my pay grade - and experience base!

[UNCLE BINGO]

Thank you for the reply and please forgive me for this next question its just the way my head works . In your opinion does it feel like one mans "MICRO VAMMIING" could be another mans "die study? Would this not create a very disproportionate discovery rate amongst the "common collector" vs the more knowing ? I get that when this work started differences in die pairs were somewhat bound to that slightly aided eye thing. But even as it has been said here technology has advanced way beyond what it use to be . It feels like to me when going through and finding what I can only theorize is the correct VAM number based on descriptions for some coins, I am then forced to possibly lie to myself and assume that is correct. Even when my best novice guess tells me its probably not.

[keilg1]

You're questions are good ones, my friend. I hesitate to offer my opinion here because I am still in the learning phase, but part of learning is called discourse (or dialogue) where people speak with each other (not at)... and this post is a great one encourging the good behavior!

Despite my superficial experience on this coin, I see more generally that some coins are 'subjectively demarcated' (in my words) differently than others. Case in point, how many crack stages are there really for 1888-O VAM-1B coins? There are clear differences between the ones that have a crack that doesn't reach the dot to ones that progress to the H10 (Harrison) stage: http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... -O_VAM-1B4... but are there really 10 or are there an infinite number of them (as any line can be divided into smaller and smaller increments as calculus clearly show us...)? The guide isn't perfect, but it does work to differentiate the stages. In other words, subjectivity can approximate objectivity in some circumstances.

In other instances it doesn't, yet for understandable reasons.

I just submitted a question about a coin that I saw with a new crack on a 1923-D VAM-1AH2 (http://www.vamworld.com/forum/viewtopic ... 36&p=59731) that could equate to at least one of the Harrison stages/jumps on the 88-O 1B scaling, but was (understandably) told this was not quite up to 'enough' to warrant a 1AH3 designation. I graciously accepted this because I defer to the experts - but I don't hesitate to ask!

The things I'm seeing on this 91-S coin, that to me are minor - interesting, but normal variation. Agreeing that these might be PUPs for some, poop for others, and in-between further still for others.

Nope, I don't believe this answer clears all things up... I hope it doesn't muddy the waters any more, but if it does it may serve a good purpose in the end!

[UNCLE BINGO]

Thanks man , as a point of clarification most of these posts are just frustration with myself . I should be better at this than I am and that bothers me allot .