91-S: Friday night fight

[MarkyB]

Plz help me understand. Vam 5. The lines around the cotton leaf above LIBERTY are an exact match. Her eye is totally different as the anomaly at the tip of her upper lid is very prominent. It's this that makes me think it's not a VAM 5. The "S" matches, as does the far date. There are two photos of the lower tail feathers but only one matches (please notice the two photos of the same area in the listing don't match). I don't have any features mentioned in VAMs 5A thru D. I've looked all far date/normal "S" VAMs.

Question: When all else fails, is it a matter of: if you can match x percentage of photos then it's a match?

I'll post photos if someone wants to help me narrow it down until I start again tomorrow. TIA

[keilg1]

Good question. My (unofficial) answer is, yes because many coins exhibit variability (most PUPs seen but because of die stages - lose or gain them), but also a no answer as this is supposed to be a binary 'This VAM, not that VAM' (i.e., a no percentages) thing. Generally, we are talking subjective changes across multiple mints, years, presses, etc. For the 91-S it is rather easy in some ways as you've caught - not many far dates with MM within tolerable variations to choose from. Apart from the 5 flavors, and ruling out the remaining options (as you've done with 9, 14, 15 and 16), you're at the state that additional PUPs can be used (by our great experts) to determine if it is new.

Can't wait to hear what the more experienced voices say, though. I'm still learning.

Feel free to post FCPs, close up pics of the date, MM, and other PUPs described for the other potentials and I suspect you'll quickly get resolution. Put that (enjoyable) fight to rest so you can begin another one on another coin.

This fun never ends, does it?!

Good luck and keep punching along.

[MarkyB]

Thanks keilg1. My new scope won't do FCPs. I didn't pay attention to the zoom levels. Sigh. Another will soon be on the way. More photo's. I think the lines under her ear are an interesting PuP.

[MarkyB]

More

[keilg1]

Nice pics - definitely far date/normal MM. If you've ruled out 5A-D you must rule out the other far date/normal MMs I mentioned. Post pictures the major description points of the other ones -- in this case, evidence of absence might be considered good enough (and would get you past the absence of evidence hurdle).

Remember, though, that VAM-7 is a far slanted date so you'd need to rule that one out, too...

Keep up the good fight!

[MarkyB]

Went thru all VAMs twice and ruled out everything. Wings, wreaths all clean. No cracks or gouges. No polishing lines. This one will be marked a 5 for now with a note to send to JB in the future. I thought the ribbon was pretty cool. Thanks for the prodding keilg1.

[LateDateMorganGuy]

Remember that one person 's PUP is another person 's die poop.

[UNCLE BINGO]

@MarkyB What reverse is it ?http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... 3-C3_Comps I don't know what you have . not sure the difference between C3 and C3a just asking

[UNCLE BINGO]

I keep reading the description for V 1C1 and wish there were pictures to compare your coin too , cause like i said I don't know what you have

[UNCLE BINGO]

And ya your pictures say far date ,,, just trying to help cover bases and its tough without pictures of everything to compare too . sorry you're having troubles . your new scope takes nice pictures BTW

[UNCLE BINGO]

NEVER MIND NO 1C1 dis continued item no longer available on the shelf where is the lip anomaly photo you mentioned ????

[MarkyB]

C3 reverse. First time I've noticed that scratch above the berry. Stars and her lip are unremarkable. Thanks for looking UB.

[UNCLE BINGO]

Shoot some more pictures please, body of eagle next to wings , both sides if possible ,,, see if there is a backlight comp setting in the software and play with that maybe ... I am trying to help and not just look stupid LMAO maybe something can be gleaned from the inexperienced trying to help if nothing else comes from this ....your MM is a hair above normal but not quite HIGH imho

[keilg1]

Remember that one person 's PUP is another person 's die poop.

Amen. And TDITD...

A fine and often subjective balance between listable and non-listable attributes. Thankfully, our lovely guides and experts have helped make it as clear as possible - in the big book, at http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... m/wiki/VAM and http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... bution_101 and all over this discussion board.

[UNCLE BINGO]

Upon closer side by side comparison , what i first thought was subtle difference in MM height may just be varies stages of wear , unless someone says you get extra credit for something different {like the lines in the wreath and lines in the wing gap . You seem to have confirming die markers for V5 on both sides .what is lacking are LFCP on the VW main-page for V5 . They are quite handy when looking for subtle stuff that may not fall into the category of list-able...

I got lucky a couple months ago and caught a cataloging error quite by accident on a members coin , and now I am afraid that incident has caused me to have confirmation bias when breezily looking at the pages . my mind is looking for mistakes or inconsistencies that are most likely not there ...

[UNCLE BINGO]

@MarkyB One more thing you said , you did not think the eye matched . you are correct about part of that statement . It looks like the same eye to me , you just took a better picture of it .. The eyelid on the VW mainpage is just hidden by shadow IMHO .

[LateDateMorganGuy]

A fine and often subjective balance between listable and non-listable attributes. Thankfully, our lovely guides and experts have helped make it as clear as possible - in the big book, at http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... m/wiki/VAM and http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... bution_101 and all over this discussion board.

One thing to keep in mind is that some so-called PUPS "disappear" during the die life, either from die wear, or die polishing episodes. So PUPs that come and go are not really reliable PUPS, only those that survive all die stages/states. Die studies flush these out.

[UNCLE BINGO]

Thank you for that !!!! .

[keilg1]

A fine and often subjective balance between listable and non-listable attributes. Thankfully, our lovely guides and experts have helped make it as clear as possible - in the big book, at http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... m/wiki/VAM and http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... bution_101 and all over this discussion board.

One thing to keep in mind is that some so-called PUPS "disappear" during the die life, either from die wear, or die polishing episodes. So PUPs that come and go are not really reliable PUPS, only those that survive all die stages/states. Die studies flush these out.

Another amen from me and something I've been trying to help others realize, cautioning us all to not micro-VAM. Just because something can be seen in a microscope doesn't mean it is a listable thing - far from it in most cases. A wonderful realization I've come to from the conversations I've had with dozens of experienced voices on this great site.

[UNCLE BINGO]

One of my very favorite teachers growing up would often say if you tell someone what to think it means very little , but it is far better to teach them how to think. Thank you guys again !