21-S VAM 35 - Zerbe

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messydesk
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21-S VAM 35 - Zerbe

Post by messydesk » Fri Jan 13, 2023 12:34 am

Heritage graciously accommodated my desire to study and photograph the 21-S Zerbe special strike that they had at lot viewing at FUN. I've finally gotten around to putting together the official description and VW page for this coin. Additional thanks to Fogie for hauling his microscope cross-country so that these pictures would be possible.

1921-S VAM 35

Go find one!
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UNCLE BINGO
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Re: 21-S VAM 35 - Zerbe

Post by UNCLE BINGO » Fri Jan 13, 2023 1:04 am

hmmmmmm more dang scribbles :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Mhomei
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Re: 21-S VAM 35 - Zerbe

Post by Mhomei » Fri Jan 13, 2023 2:00 am

Nice!!!

DHalladay
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Re: 21-S VAM 35 - Zerbe

Post by DHalladay » Fri Jan 13, 2023 2:18 am

Way to go guys!
When in doubt... don't.

Malachi35
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Re: 21-S VAM 35 - Zerbe

Post by Malachi35 » Fri Jan 13, 2023 2:57 am

Very awesome thanks
PCGS Member, NGC Member, ANA Member, YN Malachi Cress

PickNGrin
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Re: 21-S VAM 35 - Zerbe

Post by PickNGrin » Fri Jan 13, 2023 2:59 am

NICE!

morganman
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Re: 21-S VAM 35 - Zerbe

Post by morganman » Fri Jan 13, 2023 3:24 am

Awesome; Thanks for your work guys Yet another testiment to the dedication and experience
of greatmembers here who continue to make this site
the best Numismatic info available on Morgan & Peace
:|

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Re: 21-S VAM 35 - Zerbe

Post by Mhomei » Thu Feb 09, 2023 11:20 pm

found one!!!! Nice ms62 example
cool variety for sure. I will start photographing in a bit

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Re: 21-S VAM 35 - Zerbe

Post by Mhomei » Thu Feb 09, 2023 11:30 pm

found one!!!! Nice ms62 example
cool variety for sure. I will start photographing in a bit

MarkyB
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Re: 21-S VAM 35 - Zerbe

Post by MarkyB » Fri Feb 10, 2023 12:30 am

I've read the history of Zerbe. Around 1921, I only see a reference to his involvement with the Peace dollar and being at the S mint when the Morgan dies arrived. Much of what follows is hearsay. What is the thread that ties this Hertiage coin to Zerbe? Did they receive it from a relative of his? The description of this VAM and my 1921 1AG read like the Legend of Zorro or simillar with question marks (?) and using words like "supposedly". It seems Zerbe is out of favor with ANA so why the hubbub?

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Re: 21-S VAM 35 - Zerbe

Post by Mhomei » Fri Feb 10, 2023 9:52 pm

I personally like the 21S series
This is a cool variety, and the end of JB's original post he stated " go find one"

So I did, and wanted to update this thread.

As far as all the Zerbe folklore I will leave that to those that know.

But if John was excited about it is more than likely a
Legit situation.

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messydesk
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Re: 21-S VAM 35 - Zerbe

Post by messydesk » Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:19 pm

Mhomei wrote:
Fri Feb 10, 2023 9:52 pm
I personally like the 21S series
This is a cool variety, and the end of JB's original post he stated " go find one"

So I did, and wanted to update this thread.

As far as all the Zerbe folklore I will leave that to those that know.

But if John was excited about it is more than likely a
Legit situation.
Dang! Congratulations on finding one. Looking forward to the pictures!
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Re: 21-S VAM 35 - Zerbe

Post by MarkyB » Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:29 pm

My post was not intended to criticize anyone or anything but to seek further information on how the coins and VAMs are tied to Zerbe. There are standards like "First Strike" or "First Day" for coins that must be met to earn the designation on a TPG label.
My initial read of the 1921 VAM 1AG was to not put much stock in the "Zerbe" thing (I'm paraphrasing). It seems a lot of effort went into fingerprinting this 21-S as Zerbe. I'm just trying to scratch an itch but its OK if it goes unanswered. Fokelore has a place in history too.

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messydesk
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Re: 21-S VAM 35 - Zerbe

Post by messydesk » Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:59 pm

MarkyB wrote:
Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:29 pm
My post was not intended to criticize anyone or anything but to seek further information on how the coins and VAMs are tied to Zerbe. There are standards like "First Strike" or "First Day" for coins that must be met to earn the designation on a TPG label.
Those designations are numismatic nonsense, regardless of standards for the designations.
My initial read of the 1921 VAM 1AG was to not put much stock in the "Zerbe" thing (I'm paraphrasing). It seems a lot of effort went into fingerprinting this 21-S as Zerbe. I'm just trying to scratch an itch but its OK if it goes unanswered. Fokelore has a place in history too.
The reason behind all the hedging of the attribution of the P and S coins to Zerbe is the lack of hard evidence linking him to those coins. The P "Zerbes" are special looking coins, consistent with being made and handled with more care than the other 44+ million Morgans they rattled off that year. Perhaps he had something to do with it. Chapman thought so later in the year when he had his proof coins made. Heritage's recent sale of the S Zerbe cites the ANS specimen probably coming directly from Zerbe right after discussing die characteristics.

As to why all the hubbub if Zerbe is now seen as a bit of a scoundrel? They're still rare and special coins. If a coin could be "cancelled" because of questionable behavior of someone instrumental in its production, there'd be no interest in the late 19th century patterns that exist today, 1913 Liberty nickels, 1970s shenanigans-era errors, etc.
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UNCLE BINGO
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Re: 21-S VAM 35 - Zerbe

Post by UNCLE BINGO » Sat Feb 11, 2023 2:58 am

@messydesk Wrote
"Those designations are numismatic nonsense, regardless of standards for the designations."

I would like to thank you very much for that statement, you guys left out last day of production . That is kind of a bitter pill for me , having spent 500 bucks over spot for something they decided to auction off the last 500 of, (quite a while after I took the bait } now they come complete with various signatures of some clown of the day on the label , that is in fact nothing more than a marketing ploy by some self proclaimed TPG Deity.
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UNCLE BINGO
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Re: 21-S VAM 35 - Zerbe

Post by UNCLE BINGO » Sat Feb 11, 2023 12:53 pm

And Congrats Mitch on finding one . You are like a rare coin bloodhound :D
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RogerB
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Re: 21-S VAM 35 - Zerbe

Post by RogerB » Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:27 pm

There is no record of any 1921-S, P or D silver dollars being struck for Farran Zerbe. The entire story is nonsense cooked up to scam money out of gullible people. Additionally, Zerbe was in the Mint's dog house for screwing up the PPIE commemoratives.

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Re: 21-S VAM 35 - Zerbe

Post by MarkyB » Sat Feb 11, 2023 9:34 pm

Thanks for your insight JB although I would disagree that the TPG designations I mentioned are numismatic nonsense when you consider dies erode with use. Even in limited productions, I imagine the first batches are a bit sharper.

The fact there is no "hard evidence" of his ties to the coins is, IMO, bad for a hobby that itself is based on hard evidence. Coins are mineral and tangible. We must touch it, view it, and agree to a varieties significance in order to create and catalog it. I'm not trying to change minds. Opinions abound on these type of subjects and we're each free to pursue what we find fascinating about coin history. Again, thanks for the input as I'm a bit smarter.

Heck, this week I even learned what poking it means. I kept wondering why I would check to see if a coin is dead. Ahhh it means see if it moves; as in gunk.

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messydesk
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Re: 21-S VAM 35 - Zerbe

Post by messydesk » Sat Feb 11, 2023 9:53 pm

MarkyB wrote:
Sat Feb 11, 2023 9:34 pm
Thanks for your insight JB although I would disagree that the TPG designations I mentioned are numismatic nonsense when you consider dies erode with use. Even in limited productions, I imagine the first batches are a bit sharper.
Perhaps, but the designation has nothing to do with die life, only when the TPG received the coins for grading. There are some issues for which almost all coins are eligible for the designation due to shipping logistics.
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Mhomei
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Re: 21-S VAM 35 - Zerbe

Post by Mhomei » Sun Feb 12, 2023 10:48 am

here are the pics

reverse additional markers
MM 800.JPG
MM 800.JPG (193.82 KiB) Viewed 352 times
I C A 800.JPG
I C A 800.JPG (108.33 KiB) Viewed 352 times
M E R 800.JPG
M E R 800.JPG (243.17 KiB) Viewed 352 times
obverse
R I B 800.JPG
R I B 800.JPG (226.83 KiB) Viewed 352 times
Lower Hair 800.JPG
Lower Hair 800.JPG (223.52 KiB) Viewed 352 times

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