a question for RogerB

[DHalladay]

Roger, I figured that if anyone had any data about this, it would be you.

Are there any records or anecdotal information, specific to any single year or period of years, about what the per-coin cost was to produce Morgan dollars, including bullion, coining presses, dies, labor, building and equipment depreciation, utilities, shipping, etc? In other words, everything.

Thanks in advance for any insight you might be able to share.

[RogerB]

Quick answer: Yes.

I'll get some of the numbers together are post them later this evening. Responses do not include capital equipment costs (equipment, buildings, etc.) but usually include everything else it took to strike a Morgan dollar. (Less sure about Peace dollars...)

This will get you started ---- from the 1885 Mint Report. More to follow if you want.

1885 Report table sm.jpg (135.99 KiB) Viewed 518 times

[DHalladay]

Roger:

Am I reading this even remotely right?

For 1884, was the average cost per coin of all types that were made at all Mints just 1.88 cents each? That can't possibly include the cost of the bullion used, even though the column heading says "Labor, Material and Incidentals". There must be a column missing for "Bullion".

[alefzero]

Looks like it spans all issues, from the nickels through gold. Larger format gold would certainly bias it up when including the metal as would the nickel alloys bias it down.

[RogerB]

Bullion was a variable since silver was bought on the open market. Here are some other bits that should help. They are in no particular order.

18781120 Cost of coining each denomination.jpg (281.63 KiB) Viewed 501 times

[RogerB]

Pages from 18851018 Cost of coining cents 1884-1885.jpg (105.41 KiB) Viewed 501 times

[RogerB]

New Orleans, 1887 “including salaries of officers was 1-cent and 6 mills per piece. Excluding salaries the cost per NO silver dollar was “1.55 cents for 1884 and 1.49 cents for 1885.”

[RG104 E-235 Vol 050. March 3, 1888.]


Cost of distributing silver dollars was:
FY 1878 $77,999.93
FY 1879 $93,297.71
FY 1880 $65,336.42
FY 1881 $90,476.38

Total $327,110.44

[RG104 E-235 Vol 028. Feb 18, 1882]

Note: The Mint Bureau paid for shipping bags and boxes of silver dollars to bullion depositors, banks, businesses and anyone who would take them. Initially, payment in gold at par was demanded for the coins. Gradually altered to include gold notes, then silver certificates, Treasury Certificates of Deposit (gold equivalent), returns on silver bullion deposits, and eventually other forms of paper currency. Nothing had much success in pushing the coins into circulation.



September 29, 1885

Hon. Daniel M. Fox
Philadelphia, Penna.

Dear Sir:

Your communication of the 26th inst. Enclosing a letter from your Cashier relative to the cost of coining silver dollars at your mint, has been received. The letter of Mr. Cobb contains some inaccuracies to which your attention is directed. Under the first head, he has included refining and separating as a portion of the expenses of coining gold and silver. Those items of expense were not included in the statement forwarded you from this Bureau, for the reason that the charges are collected of depositors for defraying the expense.

Under the second head, in stating the processes to which minor coins are subjected, he has omitted the melting, rolling and cutting processes to which all the minor coins except the cents are subjected. Of the minor coins struck at your Mint in the year 1884, 15,000,000 consisted of five cent pieces, and in 1885 over 7,000,000 all of which pieces were subjected to about the same processes, with the exception of adjusting, as the silver coin, remembering of course that the expense of preparing the silver suitable for ingots, is borne by the depositor. However, this has no material bearing on the point to which your attention was directed. The main fact is that it is now costing for labor and incidentals nearly, if not over, two cents a piece for coining silver dollars at your Mint – that being the only coinage at present executed, while at the New Orleans Mint where a much smaller coinage is executed, the average cost per piece for the fiscal years 1885 and 1885 and for the month of August of the present fiscal year was about 1.5 cents.

At the New Orleans Mint 34 adjusters are employed; at your Mint 138 not including 24 counters. Either the force of your office should be reduced or a large gold coinage should be executed to warrant the present rate of expenditures.

For the present, you will coin, in addition to your quota of silver dollars, half-eagles, and it is hoped that you will be able to coin up the greater portion of the gold bullion in your Mint during the present fiscal year.
Very respectfully,
James P. Kimball, Director
[RG104 E-1 Box 135]

[RogerB]

There is a table, which eludes my fingers for the moment, that shows the coining cost at each mint. When I find it I'll post it.

Over time, the manufacturing cost of a silver dollar increased from about 1% of face to 2% and a little more.

[UNCLE BINGO]

There is a table, which eludes my fingers for the moment, that shows the coining cost at each mint. When I find it I'll post it.

Over time, the manufacturing cost of a silver dollar increased from about 1% of face to 2% and a little more.

You would have been a big hit on a couple of treasure hunting forums that I use to frequent. Vast Sums of knowledge such things eventually become , Thank you . I really like reading the History's you put on here .. You keeper of knowledge you

[UNCLE BINGO]

There is a table, which eludes my fingers for the moment, that shows the coining cost at each mint. When I find it I'll post it.

Over time, the manufacturing cost of a silver dollar increased from about 1% of face to 2% and a little more.

You would have been a big hit on a couple of treasure hunting forums that I use to frequent. Vast Sums of knowledge such things eventually become , Thank you . I really like reading the History's you put on here .. You keeper of knowledge you

??????? Where are the business strikes for 1895 -P....????? did they ever exist ???????probably in Colorado in JR.s safe

[DHalladay]

Thank you so much for this information Roger! It is more than I imagined was available.

[vampicker]

[/quote] ??????? Where are the business strikes for 1895 -P....????? did they ever exist ???????probably in Colorado in JR.s safe
[/quote]

There's an added layer of funny there. JR never goes to Colorado, so his 'Colorado safe' is even more nonexistent than the mystery business strikes.

[UNCLE BINGO]

??????? Where are the business strikes for 1895 -P....????? did they ever exist ???????probably in Colorado in JR.s safe
[/quote]

There's an added layer of funny there. JR never goes to Colorado, so his 'Colorado safe' is even more nonexistent than the mystery business strikes.
[/quote]

That's is exactly what I would have said if I had 12,000 pristine beauties' still in their original bags locked in a vault deep in the Rocky mountains .

PS . I truly am sorry about the manner I first came on to this forum .

[alefzero]

[/quote] ??????? Where are the business strikes for 1895 -P....????? did they ever exist ???????probably in Colorado in JR.s safe
[/quote]

They repunched the final date numeral on an unused 1894 obverse die. But a mistake was made and they used a 6 instead of a 5. 1896 VAM-20 are the 1895 business strikes. Makes for a good conspiracy theory, as it is not entirely far-fetched.

[RogerB]

RE: "Where are the business strikes for 1895 -P....????? did they ever exist ???????probably in Colorado in JR.s safe."

The circulation coins were struck and fully accounted for in June 1895 (See my article o the subject.) including the profit on coinage and Annual Assay pieces. They would have gone into one of the large vaults. The most likely outcome is they were melted or rolled out as part of the Pittman Act in 1818 or 1919 either for use by Britain or subsidiary silver coinage. There is no mysterious backstory.

Silver dollars were also melted during WW-II for Eastman Kodak's use in military recon film, but that is unlikely because only circulated and damaged dollars were supposed to be used.

RE: "Makes for a good conspiracy theory, as it is not entirely far-fetched." Sorry, it is very far-fetched. Obverse dies from previous years were destroyed in January of the next calendar year. The rest is just a silly story.

[UNCLE BINGO]

RE: "Where are the business strikes for 1895 -P....????? did they ever exist ???????probably in Colorado in JR.s safe."

The circulation coins were struck and fully accounted for in June 1895 (See my article o the subject.) including the profit on coinage and Annual Assay pieces. They would have gone into one of the large vaults. The most likely outcome is they were melted or rolled out as part of the Pittman Act in 1818 or 1919 either for use by Britain or subsidiary silver coinage. There is no mysterious backstory.

Silver dollars were also melted during WW-II for Eastman Kodak's use in military recon film, but that is unlikely because only circulated and damaged dollars were supposed to be used.

RE: "Makes for a good conspiracy theory, as it is not entirely far-fetched." Sorry, it is very far-fetched. Obverse dies from previous years were destroyed in January of the next calendar year. The rest is just a silly story.

Roger , Thank you for the reply ! Seems I read something you probably wrote about this maybe almost 10 years ago. The idea of them being stored and then melted is much more plausible to me than a clerical error . Its just the one year that I don't think at this time will ever reside in my collection . PCGS has a PR 6 listed for about 35 grand . A guy could sell the farm and only have one dollar to show for it . Not very liquid if things really go to hell someday IMHO . Thanks again for all you do !

[RogerB]

The "clerical error" argument along with "it looks like" are surrogates for the truth, which is: "We don't know, and we aren't going to look for an answer, so we'll invent something to sell coins."

[UNCLE BINGO]

My apologies to Mr. D I did not mean to hijack your thread . It has been said there are no UN search rolls of Morgans , Nothing new to discover almost kind of thing . but I see it everyday , in the work you folks do . I have a buddy who wrote a treasure hunting ( Kind Of ) book , in it he made some very interesting observations about some ( secret Group's ) that originated down south shortly after the civil war , . Very heavily tied to Free Masonry etc... . I kind of came to the conclusion he believed after the gold act of 1933 some other folks , with a few descendants of this original "group" stashed vast amounts of things in various places .to be found "when the the south rose again" , whatever that means . I personally have no knowledge of any of this but found the book interesting . Roger it would be something if even one bag of these 1895 BS were found today . I'm sure anything like that would be called counterfeit if it happened . But man that kind of idea no matter how "out there "fuels peoples imagination. and probably sells treasure hunting books

[RogerB]

RE: "I'm sure anything like that would be called counterfeit if it happened. But man that kind of idea no matter how "out there "fuels peoples imagination."

A full and open investigation would likely reveal what happened. After all, the Annual Assay Commission 1895-P circulation dollars were likely tossed into circulation in the Philadelphia area.

Imagination is good stuff !

[RogerB]

This Congressional inquiry might also relate to the cost of coinage.

Pages from 18940822 Silver cost-Senate_Page_1.jpg (192.34 KiB) Viewed 358 times

Pages from 18940822 Silver cost-Senate_Page_2.jpg (36.87 KiB) Viewed 358 times