02-P near date with collar clash 3-4 O'clock

[keilg1]

Unless I'm still reeling from too much eggnog and missing something obvious, I think the only variety for this year with a collar clash described is http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... -P_VAM-29A - occurring 12-2 O'clock. 29/29A have a normal slanted date.

I've found a near date, C4 reverse with clashes between 3:00 and 4:00:

FCO

02-P near date cclash 3-4oclock FCO.jpg (168.3 KiB) Viewed 1004 times

FCR

02-P near date cclash 3-4oclock FCR.jpg (175.4 KiB) Viewed 1004 times

Wanting to run this past all y'all before potentially submitting as a possible DC. Could be a c-clashed version of the other near dates but most likely a VAM-2 because I don't see any of the other major PUPs (doubled cotton leaf, profile, etc.). One thing I do notice like the ghost of Christmas past is what I assume is PMD to the right of 'we' (of IGWT) that looks eerily like a ghosted letter off to the right...

I believe the rim 'fun' near the 1st right star (and the corresponding area on the reverse) is not PMD but I can't figure out how the 'cut' happened. Identical shape and depth on both obv and rev makes me scratch my head.

Thoughts?

Thanks and happy holidays to all.

[messydesk]

It is a collar clash, but in order to be listable, you also need to show the same die pair without the collar clash.

[keilg1]

Thanks, John.

Curious, if this didn't have the collar clash and was submitted would it not come back as a VAM-2 as this is the description for a near date vanilla ice cream variety? Perhaps a related question, aren't VAMs still designated by qualities and not die pairings?

Thanks again and happy holidays to all!

[messydesk]

Thanks, John.

Curious, if this didn't have the collar clash and was submitted would it not come back as a VAM-2 as this is the description for a near date vanilla ice cream variety? Perhaps a related question, aren't VAMs still designated by qualities and not die pairings?

Thanks again and happy holidays to all!

The date is borderline slanted, but it looks like a "Plain Jane" VAM 2. Your related question is a little complicated. For some dates there's a 1:1 relationship between VAM catalog entries and die pairs. This is typically for those dates for which there have been more rigorous die studies by an individual or years of collector attention. 1902 doesn't fall into either category, so VAM 2 will refer to whichever die pairs look like that.

[keilg1]

Thanks again, @messydesk. To be clear then, I'll need to wait until I or someone else find an exact match without the collar clash before getting this typed as a VAM-(x)A version? How might I go about helping someone identify it and get you the needed up-close and personal PUPs if this does fall into the VAM-2 camp?

Sorry for my confusion!

[Geseas]

Thanks for the informative thread.

Please correct me if I am wrong.
If @keilg1 can locate a LFCP of the 1902-P Vam-2 Obverse, the coin he has pictured above will be a New Discovery Coin?

Sounds good to me, but I have made some assumptions.

• The coin pictured above (FCO) is indeed a 1902-P Vam-2

• Leonard Hinckley's 1902-p Vam-2 Discovery Coin has no Collar Clash

(I feel if there were a clash, Leonard
would have mentioned or photographed it)

[Geseas]

I maybe a little premature, but let me be the first to congratulate you on a new DC!

I can try and get a page started for you if you like!

[keilg1]

Thanks for your detective work, @Geseas, but let's await a reply from @messydesk or JR to see if I'd need to send it in for another reason. I don't want to jump the gun here but appreciate your help!

[messydesk]

I see no reason to send this for a discovery at this time. The collar clash is marginal as far as what would be considered for listing (want 60° and strong). Cataloging collar clashing is a relatively new thing, probably within the past 10 years give or take. The absence of a picture of a VAM 2 or mention of a collar clash on a 1974 listing does not constitute evidence that this die pair produced a coin without a collar clash. The VAM book also states that both proof and business strikes fit in the VAM 2 category, so we already know that multiple die pairs are known. My recommendation is to keep your eye out for near date 1902 Morgans and see if you can find these dies without the collar clash. Then you'll have something.

[keilg1]

Again, appreciate your input, John.

A moving target in a subjective field - two qualities that make the fun of the hunt even more enjoyable.

Is there a way for us to create a 'parking lot' to help crowdsource the efforts? This post will get deeply buried in the sands of time so we all might be well served to create a 'watch out for' section on the individual pages that will keep the hunt fresh in peoples' minds - kinda like the VNA pages in reverse (if this makes sense)? An alternative way of thinking about this is a Tinder-esque or dating site methodology: Attractive currently single combo (or obverse/reverse) seeking a mate/match/unclashed version of myself/etc... Here's my picture. Call me if you're interested or know a 'friend' who is?

[messydesk]

Again, appreciate your input, John.

A moving target in a subjective field - two qualities that make the fun of the hunt even more enjoyable.

Is there a way for us to create a 'parking lot' to help crowdsource the efforts? This post will get deeply buried in the sands of time so we all might be well served to create a 'watch out for' section on the individual pages that will keep the hunt fresh in peoples' minds - kinda like the VNA pages in reverse (if this makes sense)? An alternative way of thinking about this is a Tinder-esque or dating site methodology: Attractive currently single combo (or obverse/reverse) seeking a mate/match/unclashed version of myself/etc... Here's my picture. Call me if you're interested or know a 'friend' who is?

I would park it on the VNA page with a note that it's assumed to be a VAM 2. If someone decides to do a 1902 die study, they'll see it.

[Geseas]

Who could have ever guessed that I would be spending my time looking for a Vanilla Plain Jane in a parking lot? Collecting Vam knowledge is a great sport.
.

[vampicker]

I was working on an order today and settled on a vanilla VAM 2 attribution. Then I recalled this thread and sure enough, the collar clash is there. Still need to see this marriage without the collar clash to make a separate listing.

[UNCLE BINGO]

Thanks again, @messydesk. To be clear then, I'll need to wait until I or someone else find an exact match without the collar clash before getting this typed as a VAM-(x)A version? How might I go about helping someone identify it and get you the needed up-close and personal PUPs if this does fall into the VAM-2 camp?

Sorry for my confusion!

Sorry buddy I looked through my little stash and don't have a near date . no help here either

[Tekkie1]

Not trying to hijack the thread just fielding a question.

Still need to see this marriage without the collar clash to make a separate listing.

How does this affect say, the 21-P VAM-41B with and without the collar clash?
Or does it?

[vampicker]

That 21 collar clash is fairly minor. Leroy felt this was the case when it came to him and simply noted it in an existing listing. I've seen nothing that would warrant a separate listing.

[keilg1]

Thanks again all for your help. I'm happy to create a VNA section for the webpage and upload pictures to help others in the search for Plain Jane if that would be OK. Right now it's lacking that section.

A related note, I have a different coin I'm trying to identify and failing so I looked in the VNA for 1890-S (http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... S_LFCP_VNA) and it is woefully out of date (incorrect information and most of the links were likely VAMWorld1.0 and never updated). I'm sure this is true of many individual pages - happy to help someone update those if there's a desire.

Happy Thursday and remember there are only a few more days until we need to get used to the fact that it's 2023 (for god's sake...).

[Tekkie1]

That 21 collar clash is fairly minor. Leroy felt this was the case when it came to him and simply noted it in an existing listing. I've seen nothing that would warrant a separate listing.

Thank you JR, I appreciate you.

[messydesk]

Thanks again all for your help. I'm happy to create a VNA section for the webpage and upload pictures to help others in the search for Plain Jane if that would be OK. Right now it's lacking that section.

I've added a comment to the VAM 2 page that links back to this thread. If someone searched 1902 for collar clash, they'll find it.

A related note, I have a different coin I'm trying to identify and failing so I looked in the VNA for 1890-S (http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... S_LFCP_VNA) and it is woefully out of date (incorrect information and most of the links were likely VAMWorld1.0 and never updated). I'm sure this is true of many individual pages - happy to help someone update those if there's a desire.

The VNA pages are mostly unmaintained sandboxes where people have put unattributable coins in the past. Look at the change history to determine how up to date they are. The additional attribution guides should be treated the same, although some are better maintained. The only pages that are actively maintained are the date pages where the official VAM listings are. When I make a change to the official catalog, I make sure the respective date page is updated.