1889-P VAM-23A/23B Update Part II

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PacificWR
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1889-P VAM-23A/23B Update Part II

Post by PacificWR » Mon Dec 19, 2022 8:48 pm

I want to start this post by saying a big time thank you to two VAMWorld members for their help in collecting the facts for this post. They are andywoj00 and SilverToken.

The Reverse VAM description for the 1889-P VAM-23A list, “No die clash marks on reverse die very unusual, especially for such strong die clash marks on obverse.” and for the 1889-P VAM-23B, “Die not changed since no die clash marks appeared, except for very faint vertical line at n of In. Die fields relatively smooth with little wear. Die re-used with VAM 7 III2 7 obverse.”. This Reverse VAM description for both VAMs were the result of nobody submitting a VAM-23A or VAM-23B (to LVA) that displayed any Reverse clashing. This is the way things stood; 25 years for VAM-23A and 22 years for VAM-23B. For all these years it was just taken for granted that the Reverse for the 1889-P VAM-23A and VAM-23B were not clashed (except the clash to the N of “IN”). Well, that’s just not factual. Never was. The 1889-P VAM-23A and VAM-23B Reverse VAM descriptions are no longer accurate and are now out of date. In the first 1889-P VAM-23A and VAM23B update post, I was able to prove that the 1889-P VAM-23B (new Die Sequence #2) was indeed clashed and provided photographic proof of the newly discovered right wreath clash (see photo below). However, I was not able to prove the right wreath clash was on Die Sequence #1 (PMD and wear) and on my 1889-P VAM-23A (toning and PMD). Now fast forward 6 weeks and my second 1889-P VAM-23B Die Sequence #2 arrived in the mail. Upon examination of my new Die Sequence #2 it suddenly hits me…staring right at me are two more unreported clashes on the Reverse. The two brand new unreported Reverse clashes are, 1. Clash to G in “GOD”. 2. Partial left wreath clash. My next step was to look at my first Die Sequence #2 specimen again and see if they are there. Sure, enough they are. I just missed them the first time. Next, I examined my 1889-P VAM-23B Die Sequence #1 and both new unreported clashes are there (see photo). The next coin I examined was my 1889-P VAM-23A and both the Clash G and partial left wreath clash are there (see photo). The right wreath clash is probably there (I can see a small part), but the toning and a PMD make it conclusive. The total number of coins used in collecting this data are as follow:

My collection
2 - 1889-P VAM-23B Die Sequence #2.
1 – 1889-P VAM-23B Die Sequence #1.
2 - 1889-P VAM-23B Die Sequence #5.
1 - 1889-P VAM-23A.

andywoj00
2- 1889-P VAM-23B Die Sequence #2.

SilverToken
1- 1889-P VAM-23B Die Sequence #2 (EDS).
2. 1889-P VAM-23B Die Sequence #5.

Now, let’s move back down to the 1889-P VAM-23B and this is where it gets really interesting…again. The next thing I did was to examine my 1889-P VAM-23B Die Sequence #4 (Single clash Obverse) and guess what is on the Reverse? The Reverse has the left, right wreath clashes and the clashed G (same as Die Sequence #1 & 2 and the 1889-P VAM-23A). Not what one would expect to see. Now let’s look at the 1889-P VAM-23B Die Sequence #5 (Double clash). The Reverse has only the faint clash to N of “IN”. No left or right wreath clash or clash G is present; it is very possible the Reverse die was repolished. Note: this could change as I have not had the time to look at all my specimens.

Finally, after the Holidays, I will be updating the 1889-P VAM-23B VAM page with detailed photos of each new Reverse clash and the 1889-P VAM-23A VAM page with additional photos.

1889-P VAM-23A and VAM-23B (Click image to view at higher resolution Then click on a region of interest.)
1889-P VAM-23B Die Sequence #2 clashed left wreath. 1889-P VAM-23A clashed left wreath.

Image

Image

1889-P VAM-23A
1889-P VAM-23A clashed Left wreath. 1889-P VAM-23A Obverse.

Image

Image

1889-P VAM-23A
1889-P VAM-23B Die Sequence #2 clashed right wreath. 1889-P VAM-23B Die Sequence #2 Clash N and G.
Image

1889-P VAM-23B
Image
1889-P VAM-23B Die Sequence #2 Clash N and G. 1889-P VAM-23B Die Sequence #1 Clash N and G.
Image
Image
Last edited by PacificWR on Fri Dec 30, 2022 10:40 pm, edited 11 times in total.

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Re: 1889-P VAM-23A/23B Update Part II

Post by andywoj00 » Mon Dec 19, 2022 10:41 pm

Look forward to it. So much good info at the 89P V23B page now.

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PacificWR
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Re: 1889-P VAM-23A/23B Update Part II

Post by PacificWR » Wed Dec 21, 2022 9:57 pm

Post has been updated.

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Re: 1889-P VAM-23A/23B Update Part II

Post by PacificWR » Thu Dec 22, 2022 5:10 am

Just finished going over my 1889-P VAM-23B Die Sequence #4 (single clash) collection and all 14 have the faint clash to n, left & right wreath clashes and the clash to G in "GOD". I also completed going over Die Sequence #5 (double clash) and a couple had a faint clash to the G in "GOD", but none had the left or right wreath clashes.

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Re: 1889-P VAM-23A/23B Update Part II

Post by DHalladay » Thu Dec 22, 2022 3:00 pm

Congrats – and thanks! – to all three of you for the time, effort and sharing of coins and information to make this research possible. It's collaborations like this whose importance helps not only collectors today, but those in the future for decades to come.
When in doubt... don't.

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Re: 1889-P VAM-23A/23B Update Part II

Post by PacificWR » Thu Dec 22, 2022 11:11 pm

DHalladay wrote:
Thu Dec 22, 2022 3:00 pm
Congrats – and thanks! – to all three of you for the time, effort and sharing of coins and information to make this research possible. It's collaborations like this whose importance helps not only collectors today, but those in the future for decades to come.
Thanks Dennis. I sure do appreciate it. Thank you for your hard work on the 1921 Morgan Dollar Series. The VAMWorld community would be lost without it.

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Re: 1889-P VAM-23A/23B Update Part II

Post by PacificWR » Thu Dec 22, 2022 11:12 pm

I have just added LFCP photos of my 1889-P VAM-23A that highlights the left wreath clash.

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Re: 1889-P VAM-23A/23B Update Part II

Post by UNCLE BINGO » Fri Dec 23, 2022 2:29 am

And yes I would think your 23A gets top honors in my imaginary top 20 VAM of all VAMS list ,,, along with the 14.11 8TF and @keilg1 VAM 22 OMG coin . kudos! :popcorn:
Proud winner of Worst new Vammer of the year :lol:

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Re: 1889-P VAM-23A/23B Update Part II

Post by keydates » Fri Dec 23, 2022 4:19 am

Thanks for your work.
I see you state the coin that Remmy found was bu.
I sent that coin in for him and it came back au 55 unattributed pcgs.
I do not know who bought it or got it attributed.
The coin that Brown found was bought by ASH which ended up in ngc au 58 holder.
He got it into pcgs and I bought it.
I traded it to Peter Burch, my au 58 for his ms63.
Ash got the au 58 from Peter and then sold it to Tim Cannard when he got a ms 62 pcgs.
I sold the ms 63 to Andy Hansen when I retired my sets.

Little history there.
Larry

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Re: 1889-P VAM-23A/23B Update Part II

Post by morganman » Fri Dec 23, 2022 6:16 am

Great research and work by all 3 members Thanks

With that said it is quite scary to see varied stages of dies here, due to the
crazy values 23A has received. if one die class or the other is or becomes more
common, as has happened to other rarities, value simply plumments leaving
owners totally screwed. This is a huge reason why im not a set player etc

My smart money will stay with solid total liquid hard assets like bullion and
related etf's exchange traded funds

BUYERS BEWARE- Do EXTREME DUE DILIGENCE WHEN SPENDING HARD EARNED BUCKS ON VAMS

I HATE BEING NEGATIVE, BUT DAMM THIS GETS SERIOUS OVERALL
:|

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Re: 1889-P VAM-23A/23B Update Part II

Post by PacificWR » Fri Dec 23, 2022 8:11 pm

UNCLE BINGO wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 2:29 am
And yes I would think your 23A gets top honors in my imaginary top 20 VAM of all VAMS list ,,, along with the 14.11 8TF and @keilg1 VAM 22 OMG coin . kudos! :popcorn:
It's an amazing VAM. I just finished updating the 1889-P VAM-7 Series pages. It is now easier to see how the Reverse die (1889-P VAM23A) deteriorated. It starts with VAM-7A and continues thru VAM-7B2.
Last edited by PacificWR on Fri Dec 23, 2022 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1889-P VAM-23A/23B Update Part II

Post by rodmeader » Fri Dec 23, 2022 8:25 pm

That is a great piece of work, Wayne. All of the research you put into the endeavor has produced a great product.

Rod.

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PacificWR
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Re: 1889-P VAM-23A/23B Update Part II

Post by PacificWR » Fri Dec 23, 2022 10:05 pm

keydates wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 4:19 am
Thanks for your work.
I see you state the coin that Remmy found was bu.
I sent that coin in for him and it came back au 55 unattributed pcgs.
I do not know who bought it or got it attributed.
The coin that Brown found was bought by ASH which ended up in ngc au 58 holder.
He got it into pcgs and I bought it.
I traded it to Peter Burch, my au 58 for his ms63.
Ash got the au 58 from Peter and then sold it to Tim Cannard when he got a ms 62 pcgs.
I sold the ms 63 to Andy Hansen when I retired my sets.

Little history there.
Larry
Thanks Larry. You lost me there on the BU part.

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PacificWR
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Re: 1889-P VAM-23A/23B Update Part II

Post by PacificWR » Fri Dec 23, 2022 10:08 pm

morganman wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 6:16 am
Great research and work by all 3 members Thanks

With that said it is quite scary to see varied stages of dies here, due to the
crazy values 23A has received. if one die class or the other is or becomes more
common, as has happened to other rarities, value simply plumments leaving
owners totally screwed. This is a huge reason why im not a set player etc

My smart money will stay with solid total liquid hard assets like bullion and
related etf's exchange traded funds

BUYERS BEWARE- Do EXTREME DUE DILIGENCE WHEN SPENDING HARD EARNED BUCKS ON VAMS

I HATE BEING NEGATIVE, BUT DAMM THIS GETS SERIOUS OVERALL
Thanks. For research purposes, Die Sequencing is the way to go. It will lead you to the facts.

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SilverToken
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Re: 1889-P VAM-23A/23B Update Part II

Post by SilverToken » Fri Dec 23, 2022 11:29 pm

Just glad that us little fish can contribute to the forum for all to learn...

Great Job Wayne
When it's no longer fun, I think I'm done!

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Re: 1889-P VAM-23A/23B Update Part II

Post by UNCLE BINGO » Sat Dec 24, 2022 3:11 am

SilverToken wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 11:29 pm
Just glad that us little fish can contribute to the forum for all to learn...

Great Job Wayne
sometimes it takes a village buddy . still very solid work , to you all!
Proud winner of Worst new Vammer of the year :lol:

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PacificWR
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Re: 1889-P VAM-23A/23B Update Part II

Post by PacificWR » Sat Dec 24, 2022 12:58 pm

rodmeader wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 8:25 pm
That is a great piece of work, Wayne. All of the research you put into the endeavor has produced a great product.

Rod.
Thank you Rod. I sure do appreciate it. My work continues as there are more facts to uncover.

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Re: 1889-P VAM-23A/23B Update Part II

Post by RogerRock » Sat Dec 24, 2022 4:34 pm

Clashed die sequence is very difficult to interpret and follow with a limited number of specimen. Your dedication on research in this field is exemplary. Thank You Wayne for all of the contributions that you provide on VAMWorld!
Stage 3 TERMINAL DIE STATE SILVER DOLLAR EXPLORER

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Re: 1889-P VAM-23A/23B Update Part II

Post by PacificWR » Sat Dec 24, 2022 6:41 pm

SilverToken wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 11:29 pm
Just glad that us little fish can contribute to the forum for all to learn...

Great Job Wayne
Thanks Mark. Your coins helped produce the facts.

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Re: 1889-P VAM-23A/23B Update Part II

Post by PacificWR » Sat Dec 24, 2022 6:43 pm

UNCLE BINGO wrote:
Sat Dec 24, 2022 3:11 am
SilverToken wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 11:29 pm
Just glad that us little fish can contribute to the forum for all to learn...

Great Job Wayne
sometimes it takes a village buddy . still very solid work , to you all!
Thanks. This is oh so true.

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