Rant

[Eschaton]

PC apparently just discovered the MS61 button on their keyboard. Hopefully they learn how to use it a bit more judiciously, otherwise I might have to start sending NG some of my lower unc material.

Case in point: On a couple recent bulk orders totaling nearly 500 unc coins, got back nearly 70 coins in the MS61 grade. That’s unheard of.

As those of you who send in a lot of bulk dollars know, 62 has been (for the past couple decades) the default grade for run-of-the-mill unc dollars. 25% of the order was MS62. The spread on most of them does not justify resubmission, so I’ll just eat it. But if it keeps happening might have to send an order to Florida. Less than 1% of the order came back as MS60.

Here’s a fun one:
I resubmitted (raw) a 26-P v2 they graded 63 last time around. Went 65 this time. Will post pics later.
Almost as good as the 21-P goldfish in 58 that went 63 the second time around.

[DHalladay]

The 61 button bit me in 2020 in a bulk order I was part of here on VAMworld. It's a grade I had rarely seen over several hundred previous 1921-P coins submitted, but out of 39 coins in this particular batch I got twelve 61s. What a reaming.

On top of that, an NGC MS63 crack-out (I just wanted it in a PCGS holder) came back AU58! (No Vaseline applied on that hose job).

[UNCLE BINGO]

Sometimes you have to beware the two martini lunch ,,,, and sometimes you get tequila shot Tuesday

[SilverToken]

I posted before...

As I understand, there is no actual recognized Accreditation, Degree or Certification for coin grading

[messydesk]

...
On top of that, an NGC MS63 crack-out (I just wanted it in a PCGS holder) came back AU58! (No Vaseline applied on that hose job).

What does the white paper test say about that one.

[RogerB]

RE: "I resubmitted (raw) a 26-P v2 they graded 63 last time around. Went 65 this time. Will post pics later.
Almost as good as the 21-P goldfish in 58 that went 63 the second time around."

and

RE: "On top of that, an NGC MS63 crack-out (I just wanted it in a PCGS holder) came back AU58!"

Both are part of identical problems: inconsistency and absence of empirical standards. TPGs have been reluctant to fund basic technological research and/or to adopt proven manufacturing technology to their operations. When combined with a bogus numerical scale whose divisions defy repeatability, The results are predictable: Happiness when something regrades higher; anger when something regrades lower. The truth is that probably neither set of opinions is accurate, and the product (pun intended) is expensive self-deception.

(The TPGs like to promote their training of graders, but they do nothing about the human factors that affect HOW those people apply their training. In other circumstances, observer fatigue is common, as is observer time-sensitive bias. With profit-only hedge-type companies now controlling several TPGs, the small amount of sophistication once present is likely dead.)

[UNCLE BINGO]

@RogerB AMEN!

You don't here near as much complaining about over graded stuff and it is too bad because I think that is every bit as detrimental to our hobby as the the under graded ....

I don't have the answers , but I do here a lot of advertisement statements from them . " flawless under 10x vs flawless under 5x. Blah blah blah .......

The one word missing from those two particular TPG's , it seems to me anyways ,and should be mandated by us lowly collectors is Honor!

[iwillbenice]

White papper test leave a hashmark and i go whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
So what is bad if you get a MS-61?

[Eschaton]

There’s nothing inherently wrong with a 61 grade, assuming it’s applied correctly.

The 61 is an oddly technical grade (along with a 60), as such they should be pretty rare. Most unc coins should be in the 62 to 63 range.

NGC is, in theory, a fairly technical grader, whereas PCGS is more about luster, originality, and eye appeal.

In the eyes of some graders, a 61 is a 62 with heavy bag marks or some minor issue. And a 60 is in practice either a really chewed up unc coin or a 58 with wear on the high points but oddly unimpeded luster. Thus a 60 is a fairly uncommon grade.

Grading is an art, therefore Coins will grade differently at different times. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I’m quite proficient at grading, so I don’t mind playing the game, but if too many coins are undergraded, it’s essentially a hidden price increase since then I have to pay to get them re-graded. Not cool.

And I thoroughly agree about over grading as well. One of my obvious ms63 21p’s was graded 65. Not cool. But I’m not about to piss PC off and ask them to guarantee it.

[Flat-Chested]

Just received a PCGS 1878s VF20 in the mail, I saw damage on the coin in the seller's photos but bid on it and bought it anyway. Now I see that the scratches are significant, neither ANACS nor NGC would never have provided this coin with a clear grade. Not sure why people are so hung up on obtaining PCGS plastic, I prefer my coins to be accurately attributed and fairly graded, PCGS appears to be less consistent than either ANACS or NGC.

[Eschaton]

Preferred Customer Grading Service.

Go on eBay and look at the grades the big national dealers get, you’ll want a throw your phone through a window.

It’s very disconcerting.

And yet, I think the general consensus among those of us who’ve submitted thousands or tens of thousands of coins, is this PC has at least historically, and at least w dollars, been more consistent than NG. Not to mention that PC dollars sell more readily and for more money.

[DHalladay]

Preferred Customer Grading Service.
PC has at least historically, and at least w dollars, been more consistent than NG. Not to mention that PC dollars sell more readily and for more money.

That last sentence, like it or not, sums up what the distinct market reality has been for decades.

[UNCLE BINGO]

I so get what you are both saying , but what happens when you can't trust the numbers anymore ? If over graded isn't a problem that is just not talked about , why the hell does a guy need a CAC sticker , or PQ or QA , or sight bright , Blah Blah Blah . It is just crazy to me what has happened ....... For the money it costs to put stuff in plastic you would think they would try to get it right the first time , none of this reconsideration nonsense .

[keilg1]

Sickened by the state of affairs, but this is simply a new turn of a very old wheel and completely predictable.

As is the prediction that it's going to get worse. If you're following other parts of life you'll have heard of ChatGPT that is dirsupting education (AI using supervised learning as well as reinforcement learning to, for example, generate essays for students in classroom/university settings) or NightCafe or DALL-E (AI art generators). All showing that at least some of our world has already evolved beyond science fiction and into scientific reality.

Why mention these? Becase what PGCG, NGC, CAC and others are doing are designed into and because of capitalism - they'll continue taking our money as long as we're willing to give our money to them - creating innovative ways to make incrementally more over time... As long as we play and pay, they'll take and create more ways to take (and take more if possible).

We're part of the problem - which means we're part of the solution. Potentially and with a lot of work, but we know what isn't working already, right?

[Flat-Chested]

You guys are quibbling about trivial matters, about mint condition coins that are graded MS62 instead of MS63, whereas I am stuck with a scratched VF20 that should have received a details grade.

[UNCLE BINGO]

@iwillbenice You are just not a fan of JB's paper test How come ? I found the trick enlightening even if it hurt a little when a couple coins I had reflected the dreaded gray spots on the high points .

@Flat-Chested Personally I don't think any of the points made are trivial . I put this
picture up on a different topic last week , and I don't care if they want to call it an art form or what ever . I look at these two coins and question why???? . the graded 35 is mine , the other is the discovery coin by one of the members here. they say a picture is worth a thousand words so look at them and tell me is ether one right . or both . or just what ?

Screenshot 2022-12-16 091311.jpg (74.32 KiB) Viewed 498 times

[DHalladay]

That 1904-S in VF35 is truly disturbing.
At first glance, I'm not sure I could justify VF20.

[LateDateMorganGuy]

Interns did it.

[LateDateMorganGuy]

By the way, for someone so experienced, I am surprised you are playing this grading game and complaining.

[Eschaton]

Interns did it.