Date placement querry to the experts

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keilg1
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Date placement querry to the experts

Post by keilg1 » Mon Nov 14, 2022 4:40 pm

No additional information to provide because I'd like a less biased opinion. (Those of you 'in the know' will recognize the coin based on the question, but pretend you don't know a priori...)

Using a rather inaccurate but previously described nomenclature, would you consider the date to be 2.2 or 2.5 denticles away from the neck point? Please ignore the red arrows - there might be some slight doubing but nothing I'd write home (or to JB or JR) about...
Date placement querry 14Nov22 Gred.jpg
Date placement querry 14Nov22 Gred.jpg (57.05 KiB) Viewed 307 times

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Mike7E
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Re: Date placement querry to the experts

Post by Mike7E » Mon Nov 14, 2022 5:30 pm

Not an expert by any means but using the Date Placement Indexing System (DPIS) from the Morgan VAM Attribution Guide 101 page I get:
LH3_B45C Date placement querry 14Nov22 Gred.jpg
LH3_B45C Date placement querry 14Nov22 Gred.jpg (75.3 KiB) Viewed 300 times
LEB1 = LH3 (Left half of third denticle)
REB1 = B45C (Between 4th and 5th denticles, centered)
Normal date placement

To draw the edge line down to the denticles it should be perpendicular to the bottom of the 1. While this can vary based on how the 1 was punched it will always be the same for coins from that obverse die.

RogerB
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Re: Date placement querry to the experts

Post by RogerB » Tue Nov 15, 2022 12:08 am

Defining date position as described in your post is without meaning, since relative locations can vary. You must measure in relation to fixed reference points within the central portrait.

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vampicker
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Re: Date placement querry to the experts

Post by vampicker » Tue Nov 15, 2022 12:18 am

The denticles are also fixed points in the design. The tip of the bust points at a space between two denticles on the III 2 design and this is consistent throughout the entire use of this design from later in 1878 thru 1904. But the idea that you can reliably fix a position by tenths of a denticle doesn't hold up in practice. It's why we adopted the DPIS for new listings. It's easy to approximate and fairly reliable. No need to draw lines, just look at the coin.
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keilg1
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Re: Date placement querry to the experts

Post by keilg1 » Tue Nov 15, 2022 7:20 am

Thank you all. You got right to the point(s). The http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... 0-P_VAM-11 page might need to be updated, then, because of the 2.2 vs 2.5 denticle placement (versus the 24) mentioned. Yes, the page mentions what @Mike7E nailed - LH3B45 - is there a reason to keep both?

Happy to finally have a really nice 11 in hand - get sick of finding so many 24s ( ;) ).
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Date placement querry 14Nov22 Gred V11.jpg
Date placement querry 14Nov22 Gred V11.jpg (79.29 KiB) Viewed 264 times
Date placement querry 14Nov22 Gred V11 full date.jpg
Date placement querry 14Nov22 Gred V11 full date.jpg (50.12 KiB) Viewed 264 times
Date placement querry 14Nov22 Gred V11 #2.jpg
Date placement querry 14Nov22 Gred V11 #2.jpg (70.45 KiB) Viewed 264 times

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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: Date placement querry to the experts

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Tue Nov 15, 2022 2:20 pm

Date placement can enter the grey area. Take a look at this date placement. The same obverse die was listed as both "normal" and "near" by Leroy in two different listings. This is why I don't use line drawing to figure a date placement. The DPIS is about as good as it gets, but even it has grey areas.
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keilg1
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Re: Date placement querry to the experts

Post by keilg1 » Tue Nov 15, 2022 4:36 pm

LateDateMorganGuy wrote:
Tue Nov 15, 2022 2:20 pm
Date placement can enter the grey area. Take a look at this date placement. The same obverse die was listed as both "normal" and "near" by Leroy in two different listings. This is why I don't use line drawing to figure a date placement. The DPIS is about as good as it gets, but even it has grey areas.
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vampicker
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Re: Date placement querry to the experts

Post by vampicker » Tue Nov 15, 2022 5:11 pm

Couple more thoughts on this then I'll shut up.

It's worth remembering that style of noting date position in tenths predates the wider use of the DPIS. It is a legacy of the early days of VAM World from a professional that wanted to share information with his peers. In this case, it was to make a clear distinction between two Top 100 VAMs with one being much harder to find than the other. People get the VAM 11 vs 24 attribution right because Ash Harrison did this work and shared it years ago,

And that dovetails into Alan's point. Noting date position is and always will be subjective. Embrace the grey. If you are getting hung on a date position because you can't pin it down exactly, it's past time to look at something else on the obverse. A good illustration of this is the 1897 VAM 6A. For at least a decade, there was debate over whether or not there were two obverse dies paired with the strong pitted reverse that put this variety in the Top 100. Is it a near date (6A) or a normal date (1A)? There's a J shaped scratch on the bottom of the ear that proves they're all from the same obverse, making that marginal date position call a moot point.
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keilg1
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Re: Date placement querry to the experts

Post by keilg1 » Tue Nov 15, 2022 6:53 pm

I'm hoping that this coin is a VAM-11, based on the date alone (well, apart from the massive reverse doubling) but I've confirmed that I don't see an alligator eye, doubled stars, etc.

Again, hugely appreciative of your input. Y'all are superstars.

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