1901 O BOLD letter doubling on V 1A / 20

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demetri
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1901 O BOLD letter doubling on V 1A / 20

Post by demetri » Sat Nov 12, 2022 10:33 pm

I have this crazy 1901 O. I think this is a VAM-1A Stage 2 MDS specimen OR the EDS VAM-20 Im not entirely sure just yet Im still studying it, leaning towards a 1A errr ahhh maybe a 20 LOL. It has all of the pups for both lol and is a C3 reverse with a C3a mint mark (I think). It is missing the die break at E (crack is there) and looks like an only an early clashing at the last T in trust, but the ear, bow and D all check out to be either a VAM-1A Stage 2 MDS OR the EDS VAM-20 or somewhere in between.

That is until I saw doubling in ONE DOLLAR and in AMERICA mostly the CA and some leaves and a star or two. On the CA in America, it looked like machine doubling but the mint mark and one dollar dont look like mechanical doubling at all, or is it? I cant tell for sure. I see what I think is triple on the inside of the D in dollar.

Can anyone shed some light on exactly what I am looking at??? The doubling is intense and very bold. That would be listed right??? And if it is at all possible with the images I put up, your thoughts on if you think this a VAM-1A MDS OR the EDS VAM-20 or neither lol.

Appreciate help from anyone more knowledgeable on the 1901 O.
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Pups that align with 1A or 20
BOW
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clash (two at neck not shown)
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D
D.jpg
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demetri
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Re: 1901 O BOLD letter doubling on V 1A / 20

Post by demetri » Sat Nov 12, 2022 10:35 pm

Now for the doubling
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demetri
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Re: 1901 O BOLD letter doubling on V 1A / 20

Post by demetri » Sat Nov 12, 2022 10:37 pm

Missing pups
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ljs123
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Re: 1901 O BOLD letter doubling on V 1A / 20

Post by ljs123 » Sun Nov 13, 2022 2:45 am

Don’t the pages say that 1A is the same as 20?

demetri
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Re: 1901 O BOLD letter doubling on V 1A / 20

Post by demetri » Sun Nov 13, 2022 3:19 am

Its kind of confusing. I think only the 1A eds is same as the v20, thats the way Im getting it, please correct me if Im wrong. If I look at 1A this would fall into the MDS I think, yet looks same as v20

But the confusion is bec there is no mention of letter doubling anywhere on the variety as bold as this so and none show doubling on ONE DOLLAR and mint mark that has me even more confused?

Thanks for looking and commenting, Any suggestions?

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ljs123
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Re: 1901 O BOLD letter doubling on V 1A / 20

Post by ljs123 » Sun Nov 13, 2022 3:51 am

Until JB or JR can help us with 1A and 20 saying they are duplicate listings, I would call this a VAM-1A. I do agree MDS because you can see more than one clashed edge of the letter t, and it isn’t the desirable LDS.

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ljs123
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Re: 1901 O BOLD letter doubling on V 1A / 20

Post by ljs123 » Sun Nov 13, 2022 4:01 am

If I am reading the pages correctly, VAM-20 is the same die pair as VAM-1A, but the EDS that has no clashing.
Your coin does clearly show letter transfer.
That is why I called yours a 1A.
For me, the problem with the VAM-20 page is that it says EDS before any clashing. But it shows so many clashed 1A photos.

Looking forward to hearing form JB regarding the listings.

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impairedsquirrel
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Re: 1901 O BOLD letter doubling on V 1A / 20

Post by impairedsquirrel » Sun Nov 13, 2022 7:10 am

Wow, so much craziness in those listings.
First off, I'm sure I, along with many others over time, have questioned why the ear gouge wasn't worthy of a non-"v1" listing, yet here it is in v20, listed since 1979, apparently.
Secondly, there is a note on the 1a page that says this can't be listed as v1a because "the coin is NOT a die state of the VAM-1B in any way"... Well, it doesn't HAVE to be a die state of v1b! It seems that someone making notes on pages needs to become more familiar with the fact that VAMs are listed by die class, not individual die pairs. "MULTIPLE DIE PAIRS MAY EXIST" USED to be on every page...
To answer the OP, this is a v1a MDS (which is actually commonly referred to as the EDS because no earlier stage has been ID'd...) with strike doubling.
I go totally NUTS for WOW! VAMs!! Or is that from WOW! VAMs?

demetri
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Re: 1901 O BOLD letter doubling on V 1A / 20

Post by demetri » Sun Nov 13, 2022 3:42 pm

Yes, i sort of came to the same conclusion 1A but I pegged it as an MDS, are you saying that with the letter doubling it is an EDS? im not sure where the doubling comes into this.....

So if it is in fact a 1A as I suspected, is it the MDS? except for the doubling it would match the MDS

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ljs123
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Re: 1901 O BOLD letter doubling on V 1A / 20

Post by ljs123 » Sun Nov 13, 2022 4:06 pm

Here is how I think about it.
Let’s agree that EDS comes first, next MDS, and finally LDS.
1A is listed for clashed letter transfer.
First clash with letter transfer equals EDS.
The LDS has super hard letter transfer that shows the entire letter t.
So everything in between, I would call MDS.
I can see more than one letter t transfer on your coin. So I would call your coin, MDS.
Maybe others can explain their opinions.

You asked about letter t doubling. It is not letter doubling. It is multiple letter transfer from multiple clash events.

demetri
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Re: 1901 O BOLD letter doubling on V 1A / 20

Post by demetri » Sun Nov 13, 2022 4:45 pm

I tend to agree on MDS i was at same point but what about the double dollar and mint mark, they show nowhere

demetri
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Re: 1901 O BOLD letter doubling on V 1A / 20

Post by demetri » Sun Nov 13, 2022 4:47 pm

Sorry i should have stipulated the doubling on one, dollar, mint mark, stars and leaves all show strong doubling, is it doubling on mm and dollar? Or mechanical doubling...

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ljs123
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Re: 1901 O BOLD letter doubling on V 1A / 20

Post by ljs123 » Sun Nov 13, 2022 4:51 pm

Strike doubling = Mechanical doubling

demetri
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Re: 1901 O BOLD letter doubling on V 1A / 20

Post by demetri » Sun Nov 13, 2022 5:20 pm

Silly me of course

demetri
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Re: 1901 O BOLD letter doubling on V 1A / 20

Post by demetri » Sun Nov 13, 2022 7:01 pm

Thanks for all GREAT info, im still a bit confused as to the v20, i think v20 is the 1A eds right? I read the article/paper on doubling, great work, have to read a few times to let it sink in, that is the reason I suspected strike doubling. But someone mentioned "die class". Can someone educate me on die classes?

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ljs123
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Re: 1901 O BOLD letter doubling on V 1A / 20

Post by ljs123 » Sun Nov 13, 2022 7:50 pm

demetri wrote:
Sun Nov 13, 2022 7:01 pm
Thanks for all GREAT info, im still a bit confused as to the v20, i think v20 is the 1A eds right? I read the article/paper on doubling, great work, have to read a few times to let it sink in, that is the reason I suspected strike doubling. But someone mentioned "die class". Can someone educate me on die classes?

Someone correct me if I am wrong in my explanation of VAM-20 and 1A.
VAM-20 and 1A are the same die pair.
A clash event caused the 1A to be listed for letter transfer. I cannot answer why it was not called a 20A.
So now we have a 1A that then has more clash events and people call them 1A EDS, 1A MDS, and 1A LDS.
So, if you say that 20 is the same thing as 1A EDS there is a problem. 20 is not listed for letter transfer and 1A EDS is listed for letter transfer.
The notes on the pages make it confusing.
To make it even more confusing, there are many photos of 1A (with letter transfer) on the 20 (no letter transfer) page.

JB could you help? Please correct any and all of my errors.
@messydesk
Thank you

demetri
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Re: 1901 O BOLD letter doubling on V 1A / 20

Post by demetri » Sun Nov 13, 2022 7:59 pm

Excellent point, certainly caused me some confusion, i was struggling trying to understand it but you said it perfectly. So im going to classify my morgan as a 1A MDS with a strike double. At least until JB lets us know

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messydesk
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Re: 1901 O BOLD letter doubling on V 1A / 20

Post by messydesk » Sun Nov 13, 2022 11:09 pm

If I were to see a VAM 20 without the clash and one of the clashed coins in hand (preferably MDS), I would likely call them VAM 20, 20A, 20B, and 20C. It looks like the the different clashes on the stage of 1A are each listable on their own.
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demetri
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Re: 1901 O BOLD letter doubling on V 1A / 20

Post by demetri » Sun Nov 13, 2022 11:24 pm

That makes total sense, so I guess this coin will be the Guiney pig LOL I will send it right over so YOU can tell me which one it is he he he

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messydesk
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Re: 1901 O BOLD letter doubling on V 1A / 20

Post by messydesk » Mon Nov 14, 2022 6:03 am

demetri wrote:
Sun Nov 13, 2022 11:24 pm
That makes total sense, so I guess this coin will be the Guiney pig LOL I will send it right over so YOU can tell me which one it is he he he
Read closely. I need to see a VAM 20, too.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

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