1904 O Morgan reverse die VAM help

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BrainVAMage
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1904 O Morgan reverse die VAM help

Post by BrainVAMage » Wed Oct 26, 2022 4:31 pm

Good afternoon!

Thank you so much for allowing me to join your group! It is very much appreciated. For my first ever topic post, I'd like to ask all of the people on here if they can help me identify the reverse VAM variety of this 1904 O I've had in my collection since the early 1990's. It is currently not graded, but I would reasonably say that it's a mint state coin with some obvious clashing on the obverse and reverse if that helps.

Regardless of referencing my 4th edition copy of Mr. Van Allen and Mr. Mallis Encyclopedia, or searching through this member site on known listed reverse varieties to date, I can't seem to find anything that references a severe polishing and possible doubling of the IGWT motto combined with potential doubling in areas of the reverse. Attached are several refernce photos of the coin in various magnification and lighting combinations. I have lots of pics, so if more are needed I'd be happy to send them. Thanks in advance, and again thank you for the membership!

Best regards, Erik
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demetri
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Re: 1904 O Morgan reverse die VAM help

Post by demetri » Wed Oct 26, 2022 8:20 pm

Im struggling with 1904 too, see my post few days ago. Did you find the obverse anywhere??

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ljs123
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Re: 1904 O Morgan reverse die VAM help

Post by ljs123 » Wed Oct 26, 2022 8:31 pm

Welcome to VAMworld.
As far as clashing goes, I don’t see any photo evidence of die clashing.
Are you referring to contact marks?

As far as the reverse goes, how would you describe the mint mark location? That is where I would start.

BrainVAMage
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Re: 1904 O Morgan reverse die VAM help

Post by BrainVAMage » Thu Oct 27, 2022 12:23 am

Hello,

Sorry for the first photos, the forum doesn't allow for original .jpg's I assume, and it reduces the size. I'm new to this forum, but not necessarily new to the coin world haha. I just took a 10 year LOA.

In summary since my first post, I re-read the VAM header for the 1904 O and did some research in my Encyclopedia. Then I went on to the PCGS website and found that PCGS has a non-VAM attributed 1904 O PL graded as MS 67 PL in their price guide page listed as PCGS# 7293. It's basically the finest known for that type. The pics pop up and you can mouse over the IGWT for detail.

If you have access to their website, click on #7294 listed as 1904 O PL. It's not VAM attributed in the slab, but if you look at the IGWT motto on that MS 67 PL coin, and the two pics I just added in this post of my coin, you'll see the PUP of the extreme die polishing I'm referring to surrounding most all of the motto. You can see the PUP without magnification actually.

From there, the MS 67 grade they gave that coin should give you an idea of why I'm having trouble identifying the VAM obverse and Reverse pairings. Both coins look like they have a lot of contact (bag) marks, but both are full luster, full cartwheel, no past cleaning, dipping, ect. Mine has not been conserved yet, but it will need to have that done prior to slabbing because of the minor vertigris and PVC residue. I suppose if I were 118 years old I'd need that too. : )

I'm really not concerned with value honestly, I just love the hobby and enjoy finding things I've never seen before. No current listing in this Website, or the Encyclopedia 4th edition from Mr. Mallis and Mr. Van Allen list a pie paring for these two coins. Especially for the PUP of the IGWT motto. I'm assuming they come from the same die paring, but my coin is in a later die stage than the one shown on PCGS. More clashing and polishing basically. I can check the positioning of the mintmark location, centered, tilted left, ect., but I was just curious If anyone had seen this before. It's pretty major in regards to PUP's and die identification. Basically the coins have a lot going on with clashing, polishing, die deterioration, possible original Hub doubling instead of die deterioration, ect. I was just surprised that this may not have been noticed, either in the PCGS coin or the one I have.

I'll be attending the Whitman Expo in Baltimore this weekend, so if anyone with knowledge or the love of seeing potentially exotic VAM Morgans, I have several I can't attribute yet. I'm taking them to the show in hopes of meeting anyone in attendance that can steer me in the right direction. The VAMS I'm referring to can be seen with the naked eye if you have the coins in hand. It's not hopes, it's basically reality : )

I'd be more than happy to compensate for someone's time and input, either at the show or through this site.

Best regards to all,

Erik
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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: 1904 O Morgan reverse die VAM help

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Thu Oct 27, 2022 1:32 am

The issue you point out is very common on all C4 and C4/C3 reverses. It is certainly not rare. Look at a bunch of C4 and C4/C3 reverses on the PCGS or HA websites. It is so common, that it is not used as an attribution aid since it is so common it would be useless anyway.

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ljs123
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Re: 1904 O Morgan reverse die VAM help

Post by ljs123 » Thu Oct 27, 2022 1:35 am

The red arrows that you place on your photos are not die clash marks.

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UNCLE BINGO
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Re: 1904 O Morgan reverse die VAM help

Post by UNCLE BINGO » Thu Oct 27, 2022 2:21 am

What is above the wing gap ? PMD
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ljs123
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Re: 1904 O Morgan reverse die VAM help

Post by ljs123 » Thu Oct 27, 2022 3:05 am

When I’m trying to attribute a 1904-O.
I start with the basics and go from there.
Date location and MM location.
In the beginning of this thread there was a request to help identify the reverse.
I tried to help with that by asking how you would describe the mint mark location.
Pinning down the mm location will eliminate most of the 04-O VAMs and help get things narrowed down.

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UNCLE BINGO
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Re: 1904 O Morgan reverse die VAM help

Post by UNCLE BINGO » Thu Oct 27, 2022 3:11 am

Ttry these http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... O_Reverses... looks a little high to my eye, and maybe ever so slightly left . hard to say ... even the angle of the pictures messes with my tired old eyes :ugeek:
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keilg1
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Re: 1904 O Morgan reverse die VAM help

Post by keilg1 » Thu Oct 27, 2022 8:51 am

Welcome, Erik.

The 04-O is a fantastic series. So many high high high quality coins to study. A boon and a bane as we all know (and some love but others scream running away...).

Starting with the mint mark is helpful, but you'll see there is subjectivity between normal, slightly left, tilted, etc. More great close up pictures like the IGWT you've provided will be helpful. The IGWT, as mentioned, is a common mess so trying to pin down a VAM based on that is not do-able.

I'm sure @Kurt28 will eventually enter into the conversation as he is one of the 04-O wunderkinds 'round these parts.

Happy hunting and happy VAMming.

BrainVAMage
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Re: 1904 O Morgan reverse die VAM help

Post by BrainVAMage » Thu Oct 27, 2022 11:33 am

Good morning,

Thank you to everyone that has offered their helpful advice! It is much appreciated. My sincere apologies as well to not answering questions in the right way, and for the quality of the pics I've attached. I forgot the golden rule my Dad taught me. Start at the top of the pyramid and work your way down. Had I read the header page when I joined the group two days ago I would have read the 101 of VAM identification first lol. My bad. I got a little ahead of myself before I posted, more than likely because I was excited to start back into the hobby after a decade or so and the die polishing around the IGWT was an easy pick up point for me. I've forgotten a lot about Morgan dollars, and back in the day I studied VAM's, but I couldn't commit a lot of time to it. Now I find myself wanting to learn (re-learn) more about it. I do find it fascinating and fun.

As to the value of VAM's, I know that people look for that and I respect that, but I want to have fun learning them more in depth. I didn't mean to mention the word rarity in my earlier comments. I know rarity, interest level and value are not the same in this world. After this post I'll keep it more straight forward and simple I promise! Up to about 20 years ago I was selling different types of "rarities", but I didn't find that as fun as studying Morgan Dollars or Buffalo Nickels. I'll add a pic below if that helps to verify my coin world past here as a brand new member. : ) . I consider myself humble, so please don't laugh.

The pics I have been attaching of the coin are being reduced from the original +/- 500kb size to about +/- 100kb each on this website. It's really affecting the quality of what I'm attempting to show. If anyone has any advice on this regarding posting pics here to keep them from pixelating when they reduce, let me know. Clear details are everything here.

The pic of the O is from my microscope, displayed on my monitor, then taken with my iPhone to show the grid lines the scope won't show after you snap the pic. I lined it up fairly decent and I'd venture a guess that the O is shifted left, tilted left, and maybe placed slightly high? I need a scope with incremental marks. It would help greatly.

The other pic (if you can even read it lol) is... well... a world I don't really engage in anymore, but it had its moments I suppose. I prefer to hang onto coins and study them these days. Definitely much more fun : )

The 1904 O is definitely challenging for sure, but I like a good challenge.

Thanks to all for your help, and I'll keep my future posts a lot shorter I promise! Maybe even better pics too I hope.

Best regards, Erik
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Kurt28
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Re: 1904 O Morgan reverse die VAM help

Post by Kurt28 » Thu Oct 27, 2022 11:59 am

I think we can hunt this possum down.
Your large full coin shots aren't quite clear enough to convey all of the information needed to make an absolute determination. Though your detail pics are very good. (At this point it might worth confessing that I select my auction house on the basis of the quality of their photos. It would be quite difficult for me to go to a coin show and examine in-hand.)
Being something of a Johnny-one-note when it comes to VAMming, I cannot say whether the series is peculiar, or if it is just me. Experience in other areas indicates the latter. However, I rely heavily on Pick Up Points to get me on the right path to identification. I have never been good with Mint Mark placement. I could be that better lighting might help, or it might be astigmatism.
For those interested in this series, there is no greater resource than Alan's book. Maybe LateDateMorganGuy will let us know if any copies are available. After the First Edition, I was so impressed that I purchased 2 copies of the Second Edition. One is in MS70 and the other in AG with smudges, gravy stains and notes over all the pages.
But I digress, I have committed my eternal happiness to helping you discover the true identity of beloved coin, and have a plan. If you will take a few detailed shots of the areas shown on the coin, I'll hunt through my reference set for a match.
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Sorry I was late to the party, but I spent 48 hours binge writing, and felt fully justified to spend a proportional time under an electric blanket. First I had to defend my position to a life long best friend for not bidding on a Frank and Warren survival ax. I suppose I could have shortened the narrative by mentioning that I already have one. But that's not how we roll. Nor have we for almost 60 years. Then I had to write my nephew about the mint set from Nagorno-Karabakh. I know, I know, this may not be for everybody. In fact it may not be for anybody. But as a child, I learned that the museum is a buffet for the mind and one should sample as much as possible. When he grows older, he will see the wisdom of VAMming. Then I had to deal with an older brother that sent me a few coins. He went to a garage sale and purchased 9 coins for $4.50, and sent them to me as an act of kindness. As would happen to anyone, this lead me to writing a treatise on cash coins of the North Song Dynasty, and with a review of the evidence, I will now have to make some corrections to the Numista data base. In my defense of sluggishness, I would like to point out that my car heater quit on the same day as the furnace. I'll be fixing the car first as I can always go out there to get warm, but I cannot drive the house into town for groceries. I have a long history of this.
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Post pics, I'll hunt. Thanks for the vote of confidence.

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UNCLE BINGO
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Re: 1904 O Morgan reverse die VAM help

Post by UNCLE BINGO » Fri Oct 28, 2022 2:43 am

Beyond cool coin in that book !, Big numbers on the auction house or whatever it is letterhead ,

YOU WIN! :o


Your reverse looks sorta kinda similar to this maybe . I would not dare guess without a good look at both sides and a weekend or ten of research . There are far too many numbers in the VAM list for this year , and I don't have this stuff dialed in yet by any means. I still would like to see a close up of right behind the eagles neck . The plate photo on the link looks very similar . What is that a Phoenix :lol: ???? http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... -O_VAM-30B


EDit oooops its not the plate photo reverse but the full coin one below . they look like twins :?:
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BrainVAMage
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Re: 1904 O Morgan reverse die VAM help

Post by BrainVAMage » Fri Oct 28, 2022 5:13 am

Good evening,

You gave me some good laughs today. The thermometer I'm not sure what to make of? Is it negative 40 where you're located??? haha. Anyway, I grabbed some of the pics you wanted. I'll post 4 at a time because I think it limits them. Seemed like it anyway. Let me know if these help. There appears to be a letter(s) from IGWT in front of her neck. See attached. Also I took a shot of the denticles on the reverse. Maybe the clash and polish of the denticles might help. The clashing in the right hand side of the denticles runs all the way from the E in America to the U in United. Thanks again, and have a great night.
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BrainVAMage
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Re: 1904 O Morgan reverse die VAM help

Post by BrainVAMage » Fri Oct 28, 2022 5:16 am

More pics
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Kurt28
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Re: 1904 O Morgan reverse die VAM help

Post by Kurt28 » Fri Oct 28, 2022 5:18 am

30B
The wing/neck gap was a grease strike thru.
I'm putting together a series that show the progression.

keilg1
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Re: 1904 O Morgan reverse die VAM help

Post by keilg1 » Fri Oct 28, 2022 6:04 am

Kurt28 wrote:
Fri Oct 28, 2022 5:18 am
30B
The wing/neck gap was a grease strike thru.
I'm putting together a series that show the progression.
Nice, Kurt. I'm learning through you.

Is this a 30B because of the wing edge die scratches? Your eyes are more keen than mine but I didn't see the denticle impressions on the picture of the close up of the mint mark showing the (ON)E D(OLL) gap.

I was thinking it was a C4h - High O Set Slightly Left and Tilted Left - placement, and the new pictures show some doubling of the profile, so glad to see you're thinking a 30 series, too. I honestly don't think the VAM-30 die #1 FCP shows a high left mark - more right to me (or at least center), but that's just my eyes.

@BrainVAMage there is NO* letter transfer from clashing I see. If you're thinking something is in the middle of the field in front of Liberty's neck (your last picture), that is most likely post-mint fun (rub, damage, stain, etc.).

*Note: My original post accidentally left off the word 'no' - adding it because I don't see any latter transfer!
Last edited by keilg1 on Tue Nov 01, 2022 7:23 am, edited 2 times in total.

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UNCLE BINGO
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Re: 1904 O Morgan reverse die VAM help

Post by UNCLE BINGO » Fri Oct 28, 2022 1:56 pm

Firebird VAM ...........LOL I like it !

Phoenix
Thunderbird
Quetzalcoatl
Sacred barer of happiness unlimited .
Common or not ?
Nicknamed like that even the general public likes easily visual Stuff .
Drives interest in coins up
Values increase
Thanks for sharing ! :popcorn:
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morganman
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Re: 1904 O Morgan reverse die VAM help

Post by morganman » Fri Oct 28, 2022 2:53 pm

OK- 1904 O COMMON AS SNOT= Quite a few real cool clasher varieties of quality as well
IMHO- Newbie really overthinking here- Take deep breath- refer to 04-0 VW2 and seek out
PUPS as appropriate for your coin, date placement-MM placement but if clasher as you suggest
by your Counterclash pics thats huge start. This date is well known Clasher but Counterclashing will
make much easier to attrib. Your pics dont lend to show the clashing 04-0 is one of easier to attrib IMHO

i love pickin 04-0 super clashers off bay in higher grade say ms64dmpl + as their worth time & money
to pick & own a few. Really studying the vam page your working with allievates tons of questions and leads
to huge amts of knowledge per selected variety. I personally dont even get tied up trying to attrib from
various reverses as it is confusing to me & others. Checking & double checking PUPS on particular vam pge
is critical, and one gains super confidence with knowledge that is essential here.

In Rertospect- Try keeping things super simple and you will benefit, withot driving yourself bonkers
:|

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UNCLE BINGO
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Re: 1904 O Morgan reverse die VAM help

Post by UNCLE BINGO » Fri Oct 28, 2022 3:55 pm

NAW I"m not over thinking . I read these pages and here lots of stories about fading VAM Values , And I also read quite a bit about days gone by on a Forum that has only suffered what many other of the old EZ boards have went through . I just think if the collector has a chance of influence maybe the demand should come from the collector end of the spectrum ...AND not so much from what PCGS determines is "THE ONLY WAY " .... I must commend ANACS for their attributing methods for VAMS ." If you don't like the rules , change them " ...... Ya even seen the Disney movie a bugs life? ... Great life lessons when the day comes the Ants finally say enough to the grasshoppers ..... Take care man !
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