1884 O Questions

[ShamShield]

Doubled bow?

Clashing at the chin / neck?

Doubled round O on the inside left and / or tilted right?

Die chips on leaves?

So many questions but I need help with these answers so I can find the right VAM.

[ShamShield]

Whole coin

[fogie]

Doubled Bow - I do not think so - looks more like "ejection doulbing" or strike doubling rather than true Die doubling.
Die Chip wreath - yabut it really is terribly common so not really helpful for attribution.
Clashing on the neck on the other hand looks pretty cool and significant. Not really sure what that is but would like to see more of it.
Doubling on O mintmark - I can not tell from the given photo. If it is tpp minor LVA may have seen it and chosen not to list...
O mintmark tilted - yes!
I am wishing I was in the same place as my 84-O set as the neck clashing has me wondering...

[messydesk]

...
O mintmark tilted - yes!

O mint mark is not tilted. The picture is.

To find the right VAM, start with the mint mark and the date. Any other questions about things you see should come after doing that.

[ShamShield]

Thank you for the help. Here are some more photos

[MarkyB]

I see a normal date with round O...but is it O/O? IMO, the ribbon and chips are irrelevent. I couldn't find a mention of the clash but it's interesting. O does look tilted right but without a grid it's a tough call. It didn't find mention of a tilted right O. I suggest checking for the overlapping reeding and determine if that shadow inside the O constitutes an O/O. GL

edit: yea I think thats an O/O

[ShamShield]

It took awhile to figure out grid, does this help?

[fogie]

look at VAM-51

[messydesk]

It took awhile to figure out grid, does this help?

To show mint mark rotation, align the bottoms of the curves of the ribbon with a horizontal line in the grid.

[MarkyB]

Close. There's a couple different grids used here. Horizontal lines at the bottom of the ribbon and top of D-O help determine High-Low and tilt. There's an example found in Vam 101 under MM positioning but your example could also be used if you use the bottom curves of the ribbon as your guide. Here's one someone used to help me out.

[messydesk]

Close. There's a couple different grids used here. Horizontal lines at the bottom of the ribbon and top of D-O help determine High-Low and tilt. There's an example found in Vam 101 under MM positioning but your example could also be used if you use the bottom curves of the ribbon as your guide. Here's one someone used to help me out.

You might have missed my point. The picture you are showing is tilted. The mint mark is a little bit, but even with all the lines drawn it's hard to tell by how much because the picture is tilted. When looking at or photographing a mint mark, ALWAYS line up the bottom curves of the ribbon horizontally, as it makes seeing any tilt so much easier.

[Mediocrates007]

Close. There's a couple different grids used here. Horizontal lines at the bottom of the ribbon and top of D-O help determine High-Low and tilt. There's an example found in Vam 101 under MM positioning but your example could also be used if you use the bottom curves of the ribbon as your guide. Here's one someone used to help me out.

You might have missed my point. The picture you are showing is tilted. The mint mark is a little bit, but even with all the lines drawn it's hard to tell by how much because the picture is tilted. When looking at or photographing a mint mark, ALWAYS line up the bottom curves of the ribbon horizontally, as it makes seeing any tilt so much easier.

I seem to struggle with the vertical placement lines. I’m not sure they’re really needed, but if I line the inside/outside edges of O and D at 85 degrees, I get something repeatable. I think this is the jist of what you’re getting at?

[messydesk]

I seem to struggle with the vertical placement lines. I’m not sure they’re really needed, but if I line the inside/outside edges of O and D at 85 degrees, I get something repeatable. I think this is the jist of what you’re getting at?

Pretty much. If you look at the pictures I've posted and used on my labels of mint marks, the bottoms of the ribbon curves are always aligned as you show in your diagrams. It makes mint mark tilt visibly obvious and sets the boundary for high mint mark. I don't know that I ever use any of the other guides. They can actually clutter the picture. When I crop an image, I always include the bottom of the knot, the top third (roughly) of DO, and the lower edge of the intersection of the ribbon and cut end of the branch on both sides. The keys are consistency, and as you suggest, repeatability.

[MarkyB]

All told, I think fogie has it right with a Vam 51. The O depicted there, IMO, has a slight tilt. The clash, if it is one, is tough to equate with part of the reverse wing. I still think it's an O/O but

[ShamShield]

Looking over it all I believe you are all right with VAM 51 and I appreciate all the feedback. I will use the advice when taking future pictures and have some work to do with grids I've since I haven't attempted that before. Would the O /O be a variation of the 51 then?

[Mediocrates007]

I seem to struggle with the vertical placement lines. I’m not sure they’re really needed, but if I line the inside/outside edges of O and D at 85 degrees, I get something repeatable. I think this is the jist of what you’re getting at?

Pretty much. If you look at the pictures I've posted and used on my labels of mint marks, the bottoms of the ribbon curves are always aligned as you show in your diagrams. It makes mint mark tilt visibly obvious and sets the boundary for high mint mark. I don't know that I ever use any of the other guides. They can actually clutter the picture. When I crop an image, I always include the bottom of the knot, the top third (roughly) of DO, and the lower edge of the intersection of the ribbon and cut end of the branch on both sides. The keys are consistency, and as you suggest, repeatability.

I appreciate the feedback and agree that it looks cluttered. I was more or less copying LVA’s example from the book. For my digital workflow, I’ll stick a ruler on a tilted MM for the degree of tilt so I can compare the VAM listings (ie 1879-S - 1882-S) to narrow down my search.

[MarkyB]

Looking over it all I believe you are all right with VAM 51 and I appreciate all the feedback. I will use the advice when taking future pictures and have some work to do with grids I've since I haven't attempted that before. Would the O /O be a variation of the 51 then?

I don't know all the nuances...yet...that go into seperating one vam from another. I see the left side of another O in your pictures but the Vam 51 pictures don't have your fidelity. It may have been the same with the Vam 51 discovery piece but so weak as to not be noticed. The "is it enough" to warrant a new designation or variation is wayyy above my skill.

[Mike7E]

Some of the pictures above with the red lines do not match what "The Book" says to do. Page 116 of "Comprehensive Catalog and Encyclopedia of Morgan & Peace Dollars" 1991 shows and describes the inside "Position Guides" differently. Rather than repeat the entire section I am quoting where the inside position guides should be "...and the vertical lines from the middle of the right side of the D and middle of the left side of the O..." The inside lines should start at the thickest point in the D and O and run parallel to the lines that marked the inside edge of those letters. When drawing the lines I also prepare a roughly similar section from the mid point of the ribbon bow down below the D & O and from ribbon end to ribbon end.
I have found that this way they do not crowd the mm and give a good indication of Set Right or Set Left as seen in the pics below from my 1881-S study.

MM Pos V14 1881-S_VAM_14_Photo_1 (2).jpg (108.37 KiB) Viewed 1090 times

MM Pos V6 1881-S VAM-6 ANACS 64rebv (3).jpg (140.61 KiB) Viewed 1090 times