1884 O Questions

General discussion board about VAMs, but no buy/sell offers
Post Reply
ShamShield
Posts: 128
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2022 12:53 am

1884 O Questions

Post by ShamShield » Tue Sep 06, 2022 7:30 pm

Doubled bow?

Clashing at the chin / neck?

Doubled round O on the inside left and / or tilted right?

Die chips on leaves?

So many questions but I need help with these answers so I can find the right VAM.
Attachments
20220906_152239.jpg
20220906_152239.jpg (232.28 KiB) Viewed 1023 times
20220906_152226.jpg
20220906_152226.jpg (210.59 KiB) Viewed 1023 times
20220906_152157.jpg
20220906_152157.jpg (210.17 KiB) Viewed 1023 times
20220906_150843.jpg
20220906_150843.jpg (125.53 KiB) Viewed 1023 times
20220906_150453.jpg
20220906_150453.jpg (97.91 KiB) Viewed 1023 times
Last edited by ShamShield on Tue Sep 06, 2022 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ShamShield
Posts: 128
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2022 12:53 am

Re: 1884 O Questions

Post by ShamShield » Tue Sep 06, 2022 7:31 pm

Whole coin
Attachments
20220906_152044.jpg
20220906_152044.jpg (189.63 KiB) Viewed 1022 times
20220906_150859.jpg
20220906_150859.jpg (181.59 KiB) Viewed 1022 times

fogie
Posts: 1230
Joined: Thu May 31, 2018 9:45 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: 1884 O Questions

Post by fogie » Tue Sep 06, 2022 8:22 pm

Doubled Bow - I do not think so - looks more like "ejection doulbing" or strike doubling rather than true Die doubling.
Die Chip wreath - yabut it really is terribly common so not really helpful for attribution.
Clashing on the neck on the other hand looks pretty cool and significant. Not really sure what that is but would like to see more of it.
Doubling on O mintmark - I can not tell from the given photo. If it is tpp minor LVA may have seen it and chosen not to list...
O mintmark tilted - yes!
I am wishing I was in the same place as my 84-O set as the neck clashing has me wondering...

User avatar
messydesk
Site Admin
Posts: 3512
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 1:57 am

Re: 1884 O Questions

Post by messydesk » Tue Sep 06, 2022 8:54 pm

fogie wrote:
Tue Sep 06, 2022 8:22 pm
...
O mintmark tilted - yes!
O mint mark is not tilted. The picture is.

To find the right VAM, start with the mint mark and the date. Any other questions about things you see should come after doing that.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

ShamShield
Posts: 128
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2022 12:53 am

Re: 1884 O Questions

Post by ShamShield » Tue Sep 06, 2022 8:58 pm

Thank you for the help. Here are some more photos
Attachments
20220906_165750.jpg
20220906_165750.jpg (195.88 KiB) Viewed 1000 times
20220906_165250.jpg
20220906_165250.jpg (216.82 KiB) Viewed 1000 times
20220906_164955.jpg
20220906_164955.jpg (149.84 KiB) Viewed 1000 times
20220906_164905.jpg
20220906_164905.jpg (213.69 KiB) Viewed 1000 times
20220906_164241.jpg
20220906_164241.jpg (197.38 KiB) Viewed 1000 times

MarkyB
Posts: 75
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:50 pm
Location: Nebraska

Re: 1884 O Questions

Post by MarkyB » Tue Sep 06, 2022 9:01 pm

I see a normal date with round O...but is it O/O? IMO, the ribbon and chips are irrelevent. I couldn't find a mention of the clash but it's interesting. O does look tilted right but without a grid it's a tough call. It didn't find mention of a tilted right O. I suggest checking for the overlapping reeding and determine if that shadow inside the O constitutes an O/O. GL

edit: yea I think thats an O/O

ShamShield
Posts: 128
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2022 12:53 am

Re: 1884 O Questions

Post by ShamShield » Tue Sep 06, 2022 9:43 pm

It took awhile to figure out grid, does this help?
Attachments
Screenshot_20220906-174056_Gallery.jpg
Screenshot_20220906-174056_Gallery.jpg (124.28 KiB) Viewed 995 times

fogie
Posts: 1230
Joined: Thu May 31, 2018 9:45 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: 1884 O Questions

Post by fogie » Tue Sep 06, 2022 10:19 pm

look at VAM-51

User avatar
messydesk
Site Admin
Posts: 3512
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 1:57 am

Re: 1884 O Questions

Post by messydesk » Tue Sep 06, 2022 11:23 pm

ShamShield wrote:
Tue Sep 06, 2022 9:43 pm
It took awhile to figure out grid, does this help?
To show mint mark rotation, align the bottoms of the curves of the ribbon with a horizontal line in the grid.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

MarkyB
Posts: 75
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:50 pm
Location: Nebraska

Re: 1884 O Questions

Post by MarkyB » Wed Sep 07, 2022 4:36 am

Close. There's a couple different grids used here. Horizontal lines at the bottom of the ribbon and top of D-O help determine High-Low and tilt. There's an example found in Vam 101 under MM positioning but your example could also be used if you use the bottom curves of the ribbon as your guide. Here's one someone used to help me out.
Attachments
MM_Grid.jpg
MM_Grid.jpg (241.98 KiB) Viewed 956 times

User avatar
messydesk
Site Admin
Posts: 3512
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 1:57 am

Re: 1884 O Questions

Post by messydesk » Wed Sep 07, 2022 2:17 pm

MarkyB wrote:
Wed Sep 07, 2022 4:36 am
Close. There's a couple different grids used here. Horizontal lines at the bottom of the ribbon and top of D-O help determine High-Low and tilt. There's an example found in Vam 101 under MM positioning but your example could also be used if you use the bottom curves of the ribbon as your guide. Here's one someone used to help me out.
You might have missed my point. The picture you are showing is tilted. The mint mark is a little bit, but even with all the lines drawn it's hard to tell by how much because the picture is tilted. When looking at or photographing a mint mark, ALWAYS line up the bottom curves of the ribbon horizontally, as it makes seeing any tilt so much easier.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

Mediocrates007
Posts: 52
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:19 pm

Re: 1884 O Questions

Post by Mediocrates007 » Wed Sep 07, 2022 5:07 pm

messydesk wrote:
Wed Sep 07, 2022 2:17 pm
MarkyB wrote:
Wed Sep 07, 2022 4:36 am
Close. There's a couple different grids used here. Horizontal lines at the bottom of the ribbon and top of D-O help determine High-Low and tilt. There's an example found in Vam 101 under MM positioning but your example could also be used if you use the bottom curves of the ribbon as your guide. Here's one someone used to help me out.
You might have missed my point. The picture you are showing is tilted. The mint mark is a little bit, but even with all the lines drawn it's hard to tell by how much because the picture is tilted. When looking at or photographing a mint mark, ALWAYS line up the bottom curves of the ribbon horizontally, as it makes seeing any tilt so much easier.
I seem to struggle with the vertical placement lines. I’m not sure they’re really needed, but if I line the inside/outside edges of O and D at 85 degrees, I get something repeatable. I think this is the jist of what you’re getting at?
Attachments
2BDBE5C4-883E-439D-A55B-23AFD19EB8C1.jpeg
2BDBE5C4-883E-439D-A55B-23AFD19EB8C1.jpeg (263.81 KiB) Viewed 916 times
123A66E7-1331-4B27-A692-E8E7A8EED9EE.jpeg
123A66E7-1331-4B27-A692-E8E7A8EED9EE.jpeg (346.1 KiB) Viewed 916 times
CC80D939-D845-4100-9D0E-CAD251F4299B.jpeg
CC80D939-D845-4100-9D0E-CAD251F4299B.jpeg (337.83 KiB) Viewed 916 times

User avatar
messydesk
Site Admin
Posts: 3512
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 1:57 am

Re: 1884 O Questions

Post by messydesk » Wed Sep 07, 2022 6:31 pm

Mediocrates007 wrote:
Wed Sep 07, 2022 5:07 pm
I seem to struggle with the vertical placement lines. I’m not sure they’re really needed, but if I line the inside/outside edges of O and D at 85 degrees, I get something repeatable. I think this is the jist of what you’re getting at?
Pretty much. If you look at the pictures I've posted and used on my labels of mint marks, the bottoms of the ribbon curves are always aligned as you show in your diagrams. It makes mint mark tilt visibly obvious and sets the boundary for high mint mark. I don't know that I ever use any of the other guides. They can actually clutter the picture. When I crop an image, I always include the bottom of the knot, the top third (roughly) of DO, and the lower edge of the intersection of the ribbon and cut end of the branch on both sides. The keys are consistency, and as you suggest, repeatability.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

MarkyB
Posts: 75
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:50 pm
Location: Nebraska

Re: 1884 O Questions

Post by MarkyB » Wed Sep 07, 2022 11:14 pm

All told, I think fogie has it right with a Vam 51. The O depicted there, IMO, has a slight tilt. The clash, if it is one, is tough to equate with part of the reverse wing. I still think it's an O/O but :?

ShamShield
Posts: 128
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2022 12:53 am

Re: 1884 O Questions

Post by ShamShield » Wed Sep 07, 2022 11:22 pm

Looking over it all I believe you are all right with VAM 51 and I appreciate all the feedback. I will use the advice when taking future pictures and have some work to do with grids I've since I haven't attempted that before. Would the O /O be a variation of the 51 then?

Mediocrates007
Posts: 52
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:19 pm

Re: 1884 O Questions

Post by Mediocrates007 » Wed Sep 07, 2022 11:39 pm

messydesk wrote:
Wed Sep 07, 2022 6:31 pm
Mediocrates007 wrote:
Wed Sep 07, 2022 5:07 pm
I seem to struggle with the vertical placement lines. I’m not sure they’re really needed, but if I line the inside/outside edges of O and D at 85 degrees, I get something repeatable. I think this is the jist of what you’re getting at?
Pretty much. If you look at the pictures I've posted and used on my labels of mint marks, the bottoms of the ribbon curves are always aligned as you show in your diagrams. It makes mint mark tilt visibly obvious and sets the boundary for high mint mark. I don't know that I ever use any of the other guides. They can actually clutter the picture. When I crop an image, I always include the bottom of the knot, the top third (roughly) of DO, and the lower edge of the intersection of the ribbon and cut end of the branch on both sides. The keys are consistency, and as you suggest, repeatability.
I appreciate the feedback and agree that it looks cluttered. I was more or less copying LVA’s example from the book. For my digital workflow, I’ll stick a ruler on a tilted MM for the degree of tilt so I can compare the VAM listings (ie 1879-S - 1882-S) to narrow down my search.

MarkyB
Posts: 75
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:50 pm
Location: Nebraska

Re: 1884 O Questions

Post by MarkyB » Thu Sep 08, 2022 12:49 am

ShamShield wrote:
Wed Sep 07, 2022 11:22 pm
Looking over it all I believe you are all right with VAM 51 and I appreciate all the feedback. I will use the advice when taking future pictures and have some work to do with grids I've since I haven't attempted that before. Would the O /O be a variation of the 51 then?
I don't know all the nuances...yet...that go into seperating one vam from another. I see the left side of another O in your pictures but the Vam 51 pictures don't have your fidelity. It may have been the same with the Vam 51 discovery piece but so weak as to not be noticed. The "is it enough" to warrant a new designation or variation is wayyy above my skill.

Mike7E
Posts: 139
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:01 am

Re: 1884 O Questions

Post by Mike7E » Thu Sep 08, 2022 9:54 pm

Some of the pictures above with the red lines do not match what "The Book" says to do. Page 116 of "Comprehensive Catalog and Encyclopedia of Morgan & Peace Dollars" 1991 shows and describes the inside "Position Guides" differently. Rather than repeat the entire section I am quoting where the inside position guides should be "...and the vertical lines from the middle of the right side of the D and middle of the left side of the O..." The inside lines should start at the thickest point in the D and O and run parallel to the lines that marked the inside edge of those letters. When drawing the lines I also prepare a roughly similar section from the mid point of the ribbon bow down below the D & O and from ribbon end to ribbon end.
I have found that this way they do not crowd the mm and give a good indication of Set Right or Set Left as seen in the pics below from my 1881-S study.
MM Pos V14 1881-S_VAM_14_Photo_1 (2).jpg
MM Pos V14 1881-S_VAM_14_Photo_1 (2).jpg (108.37 KiB) Viewed 854 times
MM Pos V6 1881-S VAM-6 ANACS 64rebv (3).jpg
MM Pos V6 1881-S VAM-6 ANACS 64rebv (3).jpg (140.61 KiB) Viewed 854 times

Post Reply